SRAM - What's the point

chrispsmith83
chrispsmith83 Posts: 67
edited April 2013 in Road general
Call me an old traditionalist, but does anyone see the point in these hydraulic breaks? Should I be worried that with all these electro gismos and hydraulics are taking away the pure essence and pleasure of riding a bike. I could be talking nonsense here but will we all look back in years to come when we are on our bikes that have ABS brakes and airbags and wonder this is where is all went wrong?

Discuss...
«1

Comments

  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Call me an old traditionalist, but does anyone see the point in these hydraulic breaks?
    I always like a hydraulic break at some point in the middle of the morning, keeps the pressure up for the rest of the day.

    On the other hand, if it's brakes you're talking about, I think that all brakes take away from the pure essence of cycling, and we should just put our feet down hard when we want to stop.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    No need to worry, just buy what you want.
    Am sure the derailleur came in for similar stick years ago lol

    If hydraulics had been invented before wire you would not have even known any difference lol

    What bike do you have now? A vintage one?
  • I assume you drive a car ? I assume you use a computer ? I assume you need medicine from time to time ? I assume you fly to far away places ?

    Need I go on..? Or is that pointless too...... ya big old traditionalist you ;)
    A person who aims at nothing is sure to hit it

    Canyon Aeroad 7.0 summer missile
    Trek 2.1 winter hack
  • bompington wrote:
    I think that all brakes take away from the pure essence of cycling, and we should just put our feet down hard when we want to stop.
    or MTFU and grab the back wheel with your hand, added benefit that it looks stylish too ;)
    A person who aims at nothing is sure to hit it

    Canyon Aeroad 7.0 summer missile
    Trek 2.1 winter hack
  • goonz
    goonz Posts: 3,106
    bompington wrote:
    Call me an old traditionalist, but does anyone see the point in these hydraulic breaks?
    I always like a hydraulic break at some point in the middle of the morning, keeps the pressure up for the rest of the day.

    On the other hand, if it's brakes you're talking about, I think that all brakes take away from the pure essence of cycling, and we should just put our feet down hard when we want to stop.

    It worked fine for Fred Flinstone!
    Scott Speedster S20 Roadie for Speed
    Specialized Hardrock MTB for Lumps
    Specialized Langster SS for Ease
    Cinelli Mash Bolt Fixed for Pain
    n+1 is well and truly on track
    Strava http://app.strava.com/athletes/1608875
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Does being a cycling 'traditionalist' basically mean that you pick a point in time that you like and praise all that went on before that point, but slag off all that happens afterwards?

    Sorry for being a bit punchy, but its Tuesday and I have had nearly a whole box of Rombouts :-)

    Personally I think the hydraulic versions will just do properly what the wire ones cannot.
  • goonz wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    Call me an old traditionalist, but does anyone see the point in these hydraulic breaks?
    I always like a hydraulic break at some point in the middle of the morning, keeps the pressure up for the rest of the day.

    On the other hand, if it's brakes you're talking about, I think that all brakes take away from the pure essence of cycling, and we should just put our feet down hard when we want to stop.

    It worked fine for Fred Flinstone!

    I remember using my back foot on the rear tyre to slow down my BMX when i was 8
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    Quickly googles Rombouts
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Like the idea of Di2 but am in no rush to get it.
    Hydraulic brakes on the other hand, yeah Baby, YEAH :D
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Quickly googles Rombouts

    Coffee for lazy people :lol:
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    Think the OP does make a good point if you are at a certain age (not that I'm suggesting the OP is or is not) that perhaps hydraulic brakes & disc brakes will become more popular though if the price comes down but they do distract from the fond memories of bikes with gear changes on the down tube, V brakes etc.

    Personally have no issues with the way things are going and like to see progress in cycling, if it were not for such innovation we would not have so many pioneers trying to better our bikes, but I do like the look of an older 'classic' bike
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • Carbonator wrote:
    Does being a cycling 'traditionalist' basically mean that you pick a point in time that you like and praise all that went on before that point, but slag off all that happens afterwards?

    Sorry for being a bit punchy, but its Tuesday and I have had nearly a whole box of Rombouts :-)

    Personally I think the hydraulic versions will just do properly what the wire ones cannot.

    Ha, that's exactly what it means. you know we all do it. Don't we?
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Carbonator wrote:
    Does being a cycling 'traditionalist' basically mean that you pick a point in time that you like and praise all that went on before that point, but slag off all that happens afterwards?

    Sorry for being a bit punchy, but its Tuesday and I have had nearly a whole box of Rombouts :-)

    Personally I think the hydraulic versions will just do properly what the wire ones cannot.

    Ha, that's exactly what it means. you know we all do it. Don't we?

    I don't personally TBH.
    I love lots of old things and to reminisce, but that was then, and this is now.

    Too many people either live in the past or rush (fcuk up) the future.
    The hydraulic thing is simply progression/evolution, and without that the bikes you love would never have existed.

    I wish society could evolve as well as the bicycle has ;-)
  • saprkzz
    saprkzz Posts: 592
    I thought the same with MTB's, I rode with cantilevers until 2010, saying i would never get discs as they are more complicated, i didnt understand them so would always have to get a shop to maintian them etc etc..

    When I purchased a "race" mtb which came with XTR discs i was amazed and now would never buy another without them, i reckon the same will be with road bikes :roll:
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I did not even have hydraulic rim brakes on my radar.
    Hydraulic levers for road disc brakes sure, but not hydraulic rim callipers.

    I am not convinced by discs on a road bike or the current bulkiness and maintenance of Di2, but the quicker oil replaces cable on road bike rim brakes the better IMO.
  • tomisitt
    tomisitt Posts: 257
    I think there's a big difference between progress (making things better for the consumer) and marketing (getting the consumer to buy things he doesn't need).

    Deep-section wheels and aero frames are wonderful, but are unlikely to add significant performance gains for the average recreational rider who is unable to sustain a steady 25mph+ or get into a decent aero-tuck position. But we buy into the dream, and that's fine.

    Then we realise our heavy-but-aero carbon clinchers might de-laminate under extended periods of braking, and the brakes don't work properly on them in the wet, so the marketing men sell us the hydraulic disc brakes dream, which solves the problems we never used to have. And adds complexity and even more weight, which we can then obsess about shedding from a different part of the bike.

    The efficacy of bicycle brakes is limited by tyre grip, not by lack of power to the brakes, or lack of "feel" at the lever. I find it pretty easy to lock up my wheels through indelicate use of the brake levers, so why would I want any more power? My motorbike has disc brakes, but runs on wide sticky tyres that are hard to lock-up once the tyres are up to temp. I can see the point hydraulic brakes on an MTB or CX bike - you're dealing with a lot of crud on the rims and running wider grippier tyres. But for me, disc brakes on a road bike are additional weight, additional expense, and additional complexity, for little or no significant gain.

    But if people want discs, go ahead...knock yourselves out (which is what will happen when the front wheel locks, tucks under, and you face-plant the road). :D
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Has the OP read the article on the Bike Radar homepage? The point is modulation, not overall power according to SRAM. I can see it going the way of hydraulic rim brakes or disks, I rode my old mountain bike I gave to a mate years ago and it has V Brakes, I'm used to disks and the difference is massive, I would never ride anything with V brakes again if i had a choice, at the time i had that bike the V Brakes seemed fantastic though.
    when I got back in to riding road bikes I found dual or single pivot brakes pretty scary to be honest, I felt like I had no stopping power at all.

    When you look at performance cars they don't just have good brakes because they are going to be travelling faster, they also have them because you can brake later when approaching a corner.
  • tomisitt wrote:
    I think there's a big difference between progress (making things better for the consumer) and marketing (getting the consumer to buy things he doesn't need).

    Deep-section wheels and aero frames are wonderful, but are unlikely to add significant performance gains for the average recreational rider who is unable to sustain a steady 25mph+ or get into a decent aero-tuck position. But we buy into the dream, and that's fine.

    Then we realise our heavy-but-aero carbon clinchers might de-laminate under extended periods of braking, and the brakes don't work properly on them in the wet, so the marketing men sell us the hydraulic disc brakes dream, which solves the problems we never used to have. And adds complexity and even more weight, which we can then obsess about shedding from a different part of the bike.

    The efficacy of bicycle brakes is limited by tyre grip, not by lack of power to the brakes, or lack of "feel" at the lever. I find it pretty easy to lock up my wheels through indelicate use of the brake levers, so why would I want any more power? My motorbike has disc brakes, but runs on wide sticky tyres that are hard to lock-up once the tyres are up to temp. I can see the point hydraulic brakes on an MTB or CX bike - you're dealing with a lot of crud on the rims and running wider grippier tyres. But for me, disc brakes on a road bike are additional weight, additional expense, and additional complexity, for little or no significant gain.

    But if people want discs, go ahead...knock yourselves out (which is what will happen when the front wheel locks, tucks under, and you face-plant the road). :D

    I agree with your remarks on "marketing". I can't think of a better bowl of "victims" for the marketeers- there seems no end to the gullible in the cycling circles!!!!! :lol::lol::lol:

    However......... Coming from a MTB with hydr' discs I could see a benefit for road bikes if done correctly. You would need only one finger to brake as hard as you like & they would work as good in any weather!! :wink:
    B'TWIN Triban 5A
    Ridgeback MX6
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    I was the first in our little group to get disc brakes on the mtb. I remember all the squealing noises behind me and the stopping and waiting at the bottom for people to catch up. Same for suspension forks (cheating) and then air forks, full sus, bigger discs, pro-pedal etc. There is one hill near me that I used to start braking at about 1/4 in at the top. now I brake in the last 1/8th and stop no bother before the bottom.

    regarding the thread title - to keep the cost of shimano down.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    tomisitt wrote:
    I think there's a big difference between progress (making things better for the consumer) and marketing (getting the consumer to buy things he doesn't need).

    And these seem to quite clearly be designed to make things better don't they?
  • tomisitt
    tomisitt Posts: 257
    That was my point...are disc brakes really going to improve road bikes, or are they a marketing ploy? Disc brakes are undoubtedly a good thing, but will they significantly improve braking on a road bike when the level of grip available from 23mm tyres (and their tiny contact patch with the ground) is the limiting factor? I'm not so sure. Yes, you may get slightly better "feel" at the lever (or modulation, as it seems to be called in cycling circles), but I suspect that this is more about marketing than anything else. I look forward to being proved very wrong in due course.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I think disc brakes make sense in cyclo-cross and for commuting in the winter because of the water / filth which makes rim brakes ineffective and wears out the rims. Not sure for road racing

    Not sure about hydraulics on road bikes; maybe if they have made them light enough. Might be easier braking on longer descents, better feel and modulation. I'm assuming they'll be dearer than a simple lever / wire / caliper. Which won't matter to the professionals, and once they are using them we'll see amateurs wanting them too.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    tomisitt wrote:
    That was my point...are disc brakes really going to improve road bikes, or are they a marketing ploy? Disc brakes are undoubtedly a good thing, but will they significantly improve braking on a road bike when the level of grip available from 23mm tyres (and their tiny contact patch with the ground) is the limiting factor? I'm not so sure. Yes, you may get slightly better "feel" at the lever (or modulation, as it seems to be called in cycling circles), but I suspect that this is more about marketing than anything else. I look forward to being proved very wrong in due course.

    This thread is not about disc brakes, its about hydraulic rim brakes.

    I am not really in favour of road bike disc brakes (apart from not wearing out your wheels) but hydraulic rim brakes look cool and I would imagine feel better.
  • tomisitt
    tomisitt Posts: 257
    I thought this thread was about the new SRAM Red 22 groupset, which will be available with hydraulic rim or disc brakes. I can see even less point in hydraulic rim brakes - neither one thing nor the other - but each to their own I suppose.
  • Pituophis
    Pituophis Posts: 1,025
    I have to admit that when I got a road bike I was secretly happy to get back to the simplicity of roadie brakes, until I re discovered how poor they were at stopping you :shock:
    Road disk brakes would at least stop you, but as has been mentioned, would they lead to more lock up's due to the tiny contact point on the road? I think I would like to give them a try at least!

    I personally don't see the point of hydraulic rim brakes, just for the extra effort involved in adjusting/bleeding them, over standard rims :oops:
  • pride4ever
    pride4ever Posts: 510
    They are pointless until human beings evolve to cycle at 70mph but its the nature of the beast isnt it. These companies need to find new ways to make money so for me its fine if you want the latest albeit pointless upgrade.
    the deeper the section the deeper the pleasure.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    tomisitt wrote:
    I thought this thread was about the new SRAM Red 22 groupset, which will be available with hydraulic rim or disc brakes. I can see even less point in hydraulic rim brakes - neither one thing nor the other - but each to their own I suppose.

    Actually your right, it is :oops:

    What I meant was its not just about disc.

    I am not even a fan of rim brakes, but feel they look better on a road bike and just feel hydraulic will be a better version of them.

    Have an idea of hydraulic rim for summer bike, and hydraulic disc on winter/trail CX bike.

    Just not sure about Di2 :wink:
  • ricky1980
    ricky1980 Posts: 891
    they got to re-brand ideas every so often otherwise the boffins run out things to do so they loose their jobs and the company's brand become stale and everyone looses their jobs.

    hydralic/wired/fly-by-wire/gas powered whatever it is, it suppose to stop you. if your brakes works now then it works. it's not like bikes can go to 200+mph that requires ever increasing braking power. so personally I don't see the point. Hydraulic makes sense on cross/mtb; doesn't make a lot of sense on road bikes. plus leaks or some sharp thing piecing your hydraulic line or your nemesis cutting your brake line then boom you have zero braking power. wire for me every day simple and reliable and unbreakable or rather easily repairable.

    tho I am excited about the new Force 22 groupo, seems like a good value kit with 2x11 speed and all the nice haves from red 2013 :) I am of course referring to the mechanical sets
    Road - Cannondale CAAD 8 - 7.8kg
    Road - Chinese Carbon Diablo - 6.4kg
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    Sorry ricky but leaks and sharp things are far far more likely on MTB's yet I'd bet you a groat that that has never ever happened.Plus your nemesis would have a far easier time cutting a wire than a hydraulic hose (or at very very best, no difference)

    The point of the rim brakes is better modulation and ease of use (in terms of how hard you have to pull the lever)

    The point of the disks is the above plus that they will work as well in the wet as in the dry. Which is probably not so important for Bradley Wiggins, but is incredibly useful for normos like you and me who don't have a mechanic servicing the bike after every ride
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • iPete
    iPete Posts: 6,076
    Pure essence of cycling?

    Take off that freewheel and those gear things. Now we're talking. :wink: