Two small upgrades. How much difference will I notice...?

Paulj700

Hi, My bike came with Miche Reflex rx5 wheels and £10 Vitorria Slick tyres.

I've often heard that upgrading the wheels makes the biggest difference. Something to do with rotating mass :?

I was thinking of getting myself some decent "summer wheels" and so with that in mind I was looking at Buying some Campag Zonda wheels and Some GP4000s Tyres. Thats an outlay of around £340.
I know the wheel upgrade will save me over half a kilo (~600g) and the tyres nearly another 300g.

Question is, when I strap these to the bike, how much of a difference in feel and speed am I looking at? Is it negligible? is it a waste on a £1k bike?

Cheers

Paul

simon_masterson

Lighter wheels will be easier to spin - that's the rotating mass bit. Nicer tyres will/may also give a better ride feel, grip, puncture resistance, longevity, etc. It won't make you faster, but will affect your ride significantly.

ju5t1n

It will feel like a different bike. Zondas are excellent BTW, as are GP4000s - good choices

james_oregon

I think tyres are the biggest upgrade you can make on a bike from my experience. I changed from vredstein ricosso to some veloflex and I thought I was on a motorbike

Mad_Malx

I haven't used your original tyres, but changing to GP4000s from the supplied ones on my entry level bike was a revelation.
I had assumed that sliding around was normal on a road bike, I'm much more confident descending.
Upgrading the wheels makes a big difference to feel on most entry level bikes too.

danlikesbikes

ju5t1n wrote:

It will feel like a different bike. Zondas are excellent BTW, as are GP4000s - good choices

^_^ agree with above that it will feel different, not just the rotational weight but the overall weight & the tyres as the contact point with the road make riding at speed, breaking & cornering feel much better.

Think it is a worthwhile investment on your bike if you have the money.

Paulj700

Thanks for the feedback. Pretty much made my mind up.

Two small points though...

I read in one review that because of the Zondas construction they can be run without Rim-Tape. Is this legit or should I use tape 'Just in case' ?

And the GP4000s, 23mm or 25mm Pros and cons?

Thhanks again.

simon_e

No downsides to the larger tyre, in fact Schwalbe say wider is actually better rolling, so I'd go with the 25mm.

600g is a sizeable weight saving, you'll definitely notice the difference

alihisgreat

They aren't really small upgrades if they cost £340..

Maybe bar tape? new saddle? That's a small upgrade!

Nonetheless if you get the Zondas and GP4000s you definitely will notice a big difference to how the bike rides.

Scotty-Gee

Do tyre upgrades really make that much difference?

I'm doing up an entry level bike for TT use, weight in these element doesn't matter so much in my eyes as heavy rolls faster? Only if its really hilly it will be hard?

danlikesbikes

Scotty-Gee wrote:

Do tyre upgrades really make that much difference?

I'm doing up an entry level bike for TT use, weight in these element doesn't matter so much in my eyes as heavy rolls faster? Only if its really hilly it will be hard?

Yes is the short answer.

Weight does matter as it is rotational weight at the further most edges of the wheel so takes more energy to spin up. If you were on a track then no issue but even on a pan flat TT course you would still expect speed to go up & down with junctions etc. So you would be (from a maths point) having to put down more power to increase speed every time & more power to sustain a constant speed due to the extra weight your carrying. Though on these points you may feel a large or small difference in the real world.

Plus the rolling resistance of the tyre itself making contact with the road will make a massive difference with the right tyres fitted.

Plus you get the benefit of enhanced confidence in breaking/cornering with the right tyres.

Anonymous

If you have not already bought them, I think ribble are doing them for £250

crikey

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint, but 'rotating weight' is no different to any other kind of weight in bicycle terms.

The whole idea of superlight wheels affecting performance is not real; you might be able to feel the difference, but in performance terms it doesn't make any difference.

When you accelerate on a bike, the acceleration is very small, and you have to accelerate everything; including you, your clothes, your shoes, the meal in your stomach, your hair, your teeth and so on. Changing the weight of your wheels has very little actual effect.

Aerodynamics is an order of magnitude more important..

Scotty-Gee

crikey wrote:

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint, but 'rotating weight' is no different to any other kind of weight in bicycle terms.

The whole idea of superlight wheels affecting performance is not real; you might be able to feel the difference, but in performance terms it doesn't make any difference.

When you accelerate on a bike, the acceleration is very small, and you have to accelerate everything; including you, your clothes, your shoes, the meal in your stomach, your hair, your teeth and so on. Changing the weight of your wheels has very little actual effect.

Aerodynamics is an order of magnitude more important..

This was my understanding. Hence the questions

simon_masterson

crikey wrote:

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint, but 'rotating weight' is no different to any other kind of weight in bicycle terms.

The whole idea of superlight wheels affecting performance is not real; you might be able to feel the difference, but in performance terms it doesn't make any difference.

When you accelerate on a bike, the acceleration is very small, and you have to accelerate everything; including you, your clothes, your shoes, the meal in your stomach, your hair, your teeth and so on. Changing the weight of your wheels has very little actual effect.

Aerodynamics is an order of magnitude more important..

Well said.

ju5t1n

crikey wrote:

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint, but 'rotating weight' is no different to any other kind of weight in bicycle terms.

The whole idea of superlight wheels affecting performance is not real; you might be able to feel the difference, but in performance terms it doesn't make any difference.

When you accelerate on a bike, the acceleration is very small, and you have to accelerate everything; including you, your clothes, your shoes, the meal in your stomach, your hair, your teeth and so on. Changing the weight of your wheels has very little actual effect.

Aerodynamics is an order of magnitude more important..

Spoilsport :roll:

Bozman

I use Mavic SLs and Shimano rs80s during the salt free months, but in the winter I use Fulcrum7s........ zero difference in times over routes. The bike feels lighter but the clock tells the truth.

danlikesbikes

Forgot to say hope you enjoy the new wheels which ever ones you go for

danlikesbikes

crikey wrote:

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint, but 'rotating weight' is no different to any other kind of weight in bicycle terms.

The whole idea of superlight wheels affecting performance is not real; you might be able to feel the difference, but in performance terms it doesn't make any difference.

When you accelerate on a bike, the acceleration is very small, and you have to accelerate everything; including you, your clothes, your shoes, the meal in your stomach, your hair, your teeth and so on. Changing the weight of your wheels has very little actual effect.

Aerodynamics is an order of magnitude more important..

But I did say rotational weight to spin up as in it takes more energy, not going to argue with you that at a constant speed it makes no difference where the weight is on the bike or the rider.

We are all of course talking about theory though an in the real world would make a small difference unless you were looking at the times studies of alpe d'huez but even then the results are open to interpretation

alihisgreat

Bozman wrote:

I use Mavic SLs and Shimano rs80s during the salt free months, but in the winter I use Fulcrum7s........ zero difference in times over routes. The bike feels lighter but the clock tells the truth.

So you ride equally fast in the winter? when air is more dense and a combination of other factors should knock some speed off?

napoleond

If you want a performance upgrade for a lot less, get a proper bike fit done.

Depending on where you are I'd recommend these places-

Www.pedalprecision.com

Www.cadencesport.com

By far the biggest improvement to my riding and my enjoyment of it came after my fits with these two. (I had the second fit after breaking my back and collar bone)

You won't find much of an improvement, if any in performance by changing between those wheels. May be get some good weather fast tyres like Vittoria Corsa Evo CX or my new fave, Veloflex Master.

Bozman

ALIHISGREAT wrote:

Bozman wrote:

I use Mavic SLs and Shimano rs80s during the salt free months, but in the winter I use Fulcrum7s........ zero difference in times over routes. The bike feels lighter but the clock tells the truth.

So you ride equally fast in the winter? when air is more dense and a combination of other factors should knock some speed off?

Yes when it's dry, if it's raining or icy my time will obviously drop but in dry conditions the 7s have zero effect on time.

Paulj700

NapoleonD wrote:

If you want a performance upgrade for a lot less, get a proper bike fit done.

Depending on where you are I'd recommend these places-

http://Www.pedalprecision.com

http://Www.cadencesport.com

Thanks for that. Though I was wondering, what actual information does a bike-fit leave you with? Is it mainly saddle position, cleat position etc or does it go so far as say, recommending a different stem length etc?

Thanks

lotus49

crikey wrote:

Ahem.

Sorry to disappoint, but 'rotating weight' is no different to any other kind of weight in bicycle terms.

This isn't true.

Lower mass (strictly speaking it's mass that matters not weight) altogether reduces the inertia of the bike and will make accelerating easier and the lower weight (in this case it is weight that matters) will make climbing easier. This is true for any part of the bike or rider. However, there is an additional factor with wheels. Since they spin as well as move forward there are two elements to the inertia, one of which is rotational. This is different to any other part of the bike.

If you ever did physics at school, you ought to know that the torque required to spin up a small mass is lower than that to spin up a larger mass. Where the mass is concentrated around the outside of the object, this effect is even greater. This is true of bicycle wheels the same as any rotating mass.

napoleond

Paulj700 wrote:

NapoleonD wrote:

If you want a performance upgrade for a lot less, get a proper bike fit done.

Depending on where you are I'd recommend these places-

http://Www.pedalprecision.com

http://Www.cadencesport.com

Thanks for that. Though I was wondering, what actual information does a bike-fit leave you with? Is it mainly saddle position, cleat position etc or does it go so far as say, recommending a different stem length etc?

Thanks

The works. The biggest thing being your cleat/saddle position, then working on your front end after that. It makes a HUGE improvement to riding/enjoyment, far more than any wheel/group set change would make.
People will spend 110 quid on a carbon stem but balk at paying it for a fit.