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What hubs for race wheel build

colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
edited April 2013 in Road buying advice
Looking for advice on hubs for a race wheel build.

I currently have aksiums and handbuilt 32/32h shimano 105 wheels for training on, and PRO RC50 (20/24 50mm carbon tubular rims on ultegra hubs) for racing on, but want to pick up a set of reasonably cheap racing clinchers (c£300).

I've a few options with regard to hubs, and want to hear your opinion as to whats best, I'm not to fussed about spoke count, stiffness is a priority, and ideally something faster than aksiums. I'll be getting a local wheel builder to build them up for me, probably on cxp33 or open pro rims with DT Swiss competition spokes.

Ultegra 6700
Dura Ace 7900
Novatec 171/172
Novatec 291/482
Hope Pro3

Anything else?

Posts

  • styxdstyxd Posts: 3,234
    If you want stiffness, try some different rims.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    For racing Novatec A291/F482. Not great for training in all weather but for racing they are low weight and give good braacing angles which helps stiffness. DA 7900 I don't think from memory do not give such good bracing angles on the rear due to the flange spacings so a wheel build will not be as stiff. The Dura ace 7800 hub gives much better bracing angles and has almost perfect hub dimesnions. Some NOS stocks of these are left. I must buy some before its too late. Miche hubs are another very good alternative and give good bearing life. The front hub can be radially laced too. The Shimano 6700 hub actually gives better bracing angles than the DA 7900 so I would se those but they are 500g/pair. The Miche hubs in comparison are 435g/pair. I really like the Ultegra hubs and the Miche hubs and of corse Dura ace 7800. Again the Hope Pro 3 while a decent hub do not give the bracing angles that the Miche hubs give.
    For bracing angles in order of stiffness
    1)DA 7800 hubs weight unknown bt ~400g/pair
    2) Shimano 6700/5700 weight 500g/pair
    3) Novatec A291/F482 weight 325g/pair bearing life O.K if you avoid filthy conditions
    4) Miche Primto or Racing box 435g/pair and excellent bearing life and proper preload adjustment.
    Hope pro3 DA 7900 and others are all worse for bracing angles and therefore wheel stiffness.

    Also consider the H plus Archetype rim, similar weight to the CXP33 and a better rim (I love the archetype). There is also the Velocity deep V for a 30mm deep rim and if you do not mind the weight there is the DT Swiss RR585 for a very stiff wheelset.

    For a very stiff wheelset 24F/28R DT Swiss RR585 with Miche Primato hubs and Sapim Race/DT comp spokes. You could use Sapim Lasers/DT Revs all round if you want to save weight. It won'r be light but it will be very stiff. To save more weight use the Archetye rim but it won't be as stiff bt it will be stiff enough. The Kinlin XR-300 is a lightweight stiff rim, some do not like it due to "poor quality" but having bilt with them I have found they build a decent wheel.

    For spokes Sapims are a good alterntive to DT Swiss bt it will depend on what your bilder uses. I use Sapim and keep such a large stock that supply is never an issue. 24/28 with the archetype is fine for powerfl 80 kg riders escpecially if these are race wheels. Try Sapim Laser/DT Revs on the front and NDS rear and Sapim Race/DT Comps on the DS rear. This keeps the weight down and help rear stiffness.

    Sorry if this rambles a bit but there so many options and like talking wheels.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
    Thanks for your reply CycleClinic.

    Local wheelbuilder uses DT Swiss Competition spokes and has them on the shelf, which is why I was going to opt for these.

    He also stocks Open Pro's, but would build up wheels with any rims as long as I supply them.

    With regard to hubs, I was only looking at DA7800's as a brand new 32h pair built with open pros popped up for good money locally, but they're now sold. 6700 are a more realistic price. Though a pair of wheels built on DA7700 hubs but needing new rims have just popped up for buttons, can you comment on 7700 hubs? Would I be better off opting for a new pair of hubs?
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,711
    If they are for racing, get the Novatec... no need for the high mileage oriented Shimano. The 171/2 are very durable, while the lighter 291/482 have a very short bearing life spam (they can be changed of course). You can buy the former in 24/28 or 28/28 and 28/32, while the latter only come in low spoke count 20/24 or 24/28. The rims you mentio offer very little in the way of hole choice... it's 28 or 32, while if you go for Velocity A 23 you get the all 20 to 32 combinations, which could be handy if you plan on racing only
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    DA 7800 hubs can be had NOS as well. I was going to buy some for stock on Monday. For racing you could yuse Sapim Laser or Race spokes they are lighter.

    The Novate A291/F482 hubs may have a short bearing life for some I seem to get may miles out of them. I do not use them in filthy conditions. Also the A291 front hub is available in 28H drillings. For racing only and if you plan to use a shallow rim I would use a Kinli XR-200. I know ugo does not like them but I have had good experieneces with them and they build a decent even tensioned wheel. I use a set 28D/28R weight ust 1362g with Novatec hubs, Laser spokes and alloy nipples. I weigh 81kg now and I have put over 1000 miles on them now and not had ay issues. I will be using them for racing come May 5th and later on this year in the Eastern Road league. They even are quite stiff. I kick out 1kW now peak power and run my pads close and even when sprinting I suffer no brake rub so the flex must be minimal although brake rub is not a good way of assessing lateral wheel stiffness.

    These wheel may not last 20,000 miles but they where not built for that.

    The Velocity A23 or the H Plus Son Archetype rims (the later being very stiff) are available in 20 and 24H drillings. The Archetype in this drilling with Novatec hubs and Laser spokes (or CX-ray) would make good rae wheels, they may not be the most durable but they ould be rebuilt after a season to stop the spokes going ping. There are so many options out there beyond Open Pro rims.

    Your weight ad power output will determine what will work best.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
    I'm 85kgs and a a reasonably strong cat 3 rider, more of a TT-ist than a sprinter or climber, if that has any bearing on the configuration I should look at.

    So the Novatec 171/172 pair appear to offer the best value for money; large flange PCD (larger than the 291/482 hubs), easily serviced etc., right? The 291/482's appear to have a slightly wider rear hub body (7mm), would this make any difference? Not too bothered by the limited spoke count availability, was going to go for higher spoke counts anyway. They are about 80-100g per pair heavier than the 291/482, probably barely noticeable at the hubs?

    Probably will go for archetypes alright, they do look nice...

    Maybe 24 DT Swiss Aerolites on the front to save some weight and 28 DT Swiss Competitions on the rear.

    Would like to hear the expert opinions before I order the parts...
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Both the F172 and F482 have the same flange spacing I believe. I am not near my records so I will need to double check or measure the F172 hub again. I stock these hubs so I can measre tomorrow (the A171 and F172 is not one I se often so I forget the dimensions)

    Use Sapim Laser spokes on the front and Sapim Laser spokes NDS and Sapim Race spokes DS. With the archetype rim and A291/F482 hubs or A171/F172 hubs, this wheelset will be plenty stiff for you.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
    The 291/482 combo is almost 3 times the price of the 171/172 combo for a weight saving of 80g, I think I could live with the extra weight for that price/weight ratio, especially at the hubs, or is there any other reason to go for the 291/482 combo over the 171/172 combo?

    I can get kinlin xr240, xr270 and xr300 rims quite cheap, can you comment on the quality of any of them?

    Hoping to order the rims and hubs today.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,711
    colm_gti wrote:
    The 291/482 combo is almost 3 times the price of the 171/172 combo for a weight saving of 80g, I think I could live with the extra weight for that price/weight ratio, especially at the hubs, or is there any other reason to go for the 291/482 combo over the 171/172 combo?

    I can get kinlin xr240, xr270 and xr300 rims quite cheap, can you comment on the quality of any of them?

    Hoping to order the rims and hubs today.

    I have stopped using the 291/482 combos as I am a bit fed up of replacing bearings TBH... there is no reason whatsover to use them over the 171/172, unless you want a 20/24 combo or you want to hit some weight target.
    Kinlin rims are OK for racing, they are not the most durable rims, as proved by the frequent cracks in Planet X model B wheels, but if you are not planning to run 10,000 miles on them they will be just fine... worst for worst you can fit some rim washers and avoid the problem altogether.
  • colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
    Aye, was planning to go with a 24/28 or even 28/28 build with kinlin xr 270's, looks like they'd be coming in at around £170-£200 built up, and roughly 1600g. I wouldn't be too worried about damaging them mid-race at that price....
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 27,711
    colm_gti wrote:
    Aye, was planning to go with a 24/28 or even 28/28 build with kinlin xr 270's, looks like they'd be coming in at around £170-£200 built up, and roughly 1600g. I wouldn't be too worried about damaging them mid-race at that price....

    Yeah, like these

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/281
  • colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
    colm_gti wrote:
    Aye, was planning to go with a 24/28 or even 28/28 build with kinlin xr 270's, looks like they'd be coming in at around £170-£200 built up, and roughly 1600g. I wouldn't be too worried about damaging them mid-race at that price....

    Yeah, like these

    http://paolocoppo.drupalgardens.com/med ... ail/16/281

    Haha that's them exactly!!

    Though I am still wavering between the kinlins and just coughing up the extra few quid for velocity A23's...
  • pkripperpkripper Posts: 652
    cough up the extra - i like the feel of my a23s vs the felt wheels I have (which to my mind look like 30mm kinlins)
  • colm_gticolm_gti Posts: 173
    After all that, just as I was about to place an order for novatec hubs and velocity rims....a pair of open pro on DA7800 with 32 spokes popped up locally for €200 (£170).

    I'm told there is roughly 5000km on them, and they're straight as an arrow, built locally.

    Now, I'm torn between going for the Novatec/Velocity combo, or taking the above, riding them for this season, then having them built on nicer rims at a later date....opinions?
  • smidsysmidsy Posts: 5,273
    The hubs are probably worth that.
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • Sorry to slightly hijack thread but was reluctant to start yet another wheel one. I was all set to buy a set of RS80s but after reading some of the threads on here and taking advice on board am pretty much set on looking at handbuilts.

    My problem is its a mind field, I imagine if built well handbuilts will w much better and last longer but it also makes things more complicated for someone fairly inexperienced like myself with a seemingly endless list of options!
    So I suppose my questions is can I get something that fits a similar bill to the rs80s in terms of weight, strength and looks for the same kind of price and durability?

    I mainly ride hilly routes and do triathlons up to half iron distance. Also doing coast to coast this year. Have a set of stock wheels at the moment which I will probably keep for when the weather is really censored . I'm about 80-85kg and tend to be more of a masher than a spinner if that makes any difference? Advice very much welcomed.
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