Braking from hoods - Help!

Fi31

Hope someone can help? - I have a Trek female specific road bike and as i'm a relative newbie to road bikes I don't ride too often in the drops yet. When in drops, I can reach the brakes and pull the levers easily, but trying to brake from the hoods is near impossible for me. I seem to reach the levers, but can only pull on them with pinky/last two fingers and when I do its like a half hearted brake, which doesn't stop the bike when on a hill and i end up feeling major pain between my thumb and forefinger and actually having to put my feet down to help me stop - no use if i'm going to tackle a sportive in a few weeks and its got a big hill to descend (thats if I get up it in the first place!)
Guy in bike shop suggested spacers in hood section of brake, but its already got one of those, any ideas or suggestions to help please?

goonz

You could possibly tilt your handlebars a little higher? Get some practise also when stationary in pulling the levers. Is it you cannot reach or simply cannot pul it far enough to stop?

I usually only use the last 3 fingers when on the hoods but you do need to pull hard so your hand strength may be worth working on.

If you cannot reach then maybe look into moving your seat a little forward?

goonz

Oh and maybe a shorter stem...

rolf_f

goonz wrote:

Oh and maybe a shorter stem...

First thing I'd do is stand astride the bike (ie infront of the saddle) and see how the brakes feel then. If they are fine, then it isn't about the shape of the hoods etc but the setup of the bike. If it still feels wrong, then maybe the levers aren't right for you. If you have short fingers then you can get smaller shifters from Shimano but they aren't very cheap (I think they are at Ultegra level though not badged as such).

That said, in the old days when the brake cables came out of the top of the lever body, the pivots were much lower and it really was hard to brake at all usefully from the hoods. Hence people rode on the drops most of the time.

As for your steep descent - you should be on the drops for that anyway. No matter how well sorted your setup is, braking is never as powerful on the hoods as the drops.

Fi31

Thanks Rolph - I'm heading out this afternoon so i'll have a try and see what they feel like standing astride the bike as you say. Am I checking if I can reach and pull hard enough on them from the hood position while standing?

And yes, your'e right about the descent, I need to build my confidence doing that too as its the Etape Caledonia - first ever sportive - I must be mad! and 1000 feet down Schehalion mountain - nearly as scary as trying to get up it in the first place !! Everything I read says I should feel more stable in the drops - but I don't, I feel more shaky

Fi31

and thanks Goonz - I bought a wee exercise hand strengthening bars last night so i'll give that a go too - stem already short as female specific bike and handlebars higher made it worse

16mm

Maybe post a picture of your arms / hands on the hoods. It should be easy to see if everything looks normal.

slowbike

Sounds like you're not rotating your hands round the hoods enough - I brake with all my fingers applying force - just the thumbs hooked around the hoods or bars.

rolf_f

Fi31 wrote:

Thanks Rolph - I'm heading out this afternoon so i'll have a try and see what they feel like standing astride the bike as you say. Am I checking if I can reach and pull hard enough on them from the hood position while standing?

And yes, your'e right about the descent, I need to build my confidence doing that too as its the Etape Caledonia - first ever sportive - I must be mad! and 1000 feet down Schehalion mountain - nearly as scary as trying to get up it in the first place !! Everything I read says I should feel more stable in the drops - but I don't, I feel more shaky

How steep is the descent? It gets really nasty when you start getting over 20% (where you end up either almost stopped or going way too fast!) but most descents aren't like that and it's more about being comfortable with the speed.

As for the drops - everything you've read is right - you just need more faith in the knowledge! You could do a lot worse than to go for a not very long ride or two and try to stay in the drops all the time. You'll soon get used to it. Probably within the first 30 minutes of the ride!

philwint

Echoing what Rolf has said - i'm a big guy with large v strong hands.... and i still slip into the drops on anything where i think i might want to brake hard. Braking from the hoods is ok to shave a bit of speed off, but i wouldn't want to do am emergency stop lol

On one of your earlier points - if your feet can touch the ground to help you brake you almost certainly have the saddle much much too low.

forward_loop

Fi31 wrote:

Hope someone can help? - I have a Trek female specific road bike and as i'm a relative newbie to road bikes I don't ride too often in the drops yet. When in drops, I can reach the brakes and pull the levers easily, but trying to brake from the hoods is near impossible for me. I seem to reach the levers, but can only pull on them with pinky/last two fingers and when I do its like a half hearted brake, which doesn't stop the bike when on a hill and i end up feeling major pain between my thumb and forefinger and actually having to put my feet down to help me stop - no use if i'm going to tackle a sportive in a few weeks and its got a big hill to descend (thats if I get up it in the first place!)
Guy in bike shop suggested spacers in hood section of brake, but its already got one of those, any ideas or suggestions to help please?

Am assuming you have had a certain level of bike fit - even if it was when just buying the bike. I'm not entirely sure I understand you descriptions but A few options
1) the rubber spacers - if you are running either 105 or ultegra, you should have the option of two different spacers, often the bike shops just leave these out - one thick/one thin marked up as 5mm or 10mm iirc - obviously use the/check you have the 10mm/larger one
2) If you cant get your fingers "around the brakes" to exert pressure. Loosen off the brake calipers a bit, the hexagonal nut between brake cable and caliper. This will mean that the brake lever moves somewhat easily for a bit before pressure is needed for the blocks to clasp the wheel rim.
3) I would suggest not to fiddle with the stem length at this point - female specific stems are already very short
4) another alternative is to fit additional brakes to the top of the bars until you build you confidence/get used to clip in shoes, become comfortable with the fit etc. They are cheap, work well and are easy to fit. Traditionally used more in cyclo-cross.
5) when you do brake - in most situations contrary to a beginners intuition most of the force should be exerted on the front brake in most situations, so at least look to even out any braking.

hope this helps - gd luck with the sportive.

woodywmb

Re-item 4 in Forward loop's excellent post: I have just fitted cross top levers to my road bike to solve the same problem you have. I swithered after reading advice on here about the need to get "down on the drops" in order to ride the bike properly, maintaining good speed and effective braking. My hands were sore on steep descents from braking on the hoods.Either that or I had to position myself on the drops well in advance of a downhill because of a lack of confidence. I persevered until one day I decided I had to do something. It cost me £30 all in at the bike shop and, yes, my bike is a few ounces heavier - but cycling is so much of a pleasure now. I can grip the handlebars anywhere and stop with the slightest of movements. Wish I had done this a long time ago. This might not be a solution for everyone but it was for me and my cycling has taken off like nothing before. I attach a picture of cross top levers from a site I Googled. I recommend you get them if you want to enjoy riding your bike with complete confidence. You never need worry about stem length or turning it upside down - or fiddling with wedges to prop the levers open a bit.
http://tinyurl.com/BRAKEsolution

goonz

Woodywmb wrote:

Re-item 4 in Forward loop's excellent post: I have just fitted cross top levers to my road bike to solve the same problem you have. I swithered after reading advice on here about the need to get "down on the drops" in order to ride the bike properly, maintaining good speed and effective braking. My hands were sore on steep descents from braking on the hoods.Either that or I had to position myself on the drops well in advance of a downhill because of a lack of confidence. I persevered until one day I decided I had to do something. It cost me £30 all in at the bike shop and, yes, my bike is a few ounces heavier - but cycling is so much of a pleasure now. I can grip the handlebars anywhere and stop with the slightest of movements. Wish I had done this a long time ago. This might not be a solution for everyone but it was for me and my cycling has taken off like nothing before. I attach a picture of cross top levers from a site I Googled. I recommend you get them if you want to enjoy riding your bike with complete confidence. You never need worry about stem length or turning it upside down - or fiddling with wedges to prop the levers open a bit.
http://tinyurl.com/BRAKEsolution

Interesting you are the second person I have seen with those. A guy I was riding with on Sunday had that set up and obviously helps with braking in the more relaxed position. I may also look into this...get ready to be lambasted by the purists!

nmt

+1 For the top bar cyclo cross style brakes, My son had the same problem cost me £40 to have them fitted but it's made him much more confident on the bike.

woodywmb

goonz wrote:

...get ready to be lambasted by the purists!

Thought long and hard before posting.

rolf_f

Woodywmb wrote:

I recommend you get them if you want to enjoy riding your bike with complete confidence. You never need worry about stem length or turning it upside down - or fiddling with wedges to prop the levers open a bit.
http://tinyurl.com/BRAKEsolution

The problem is though that if you use these to avoid using the drops you'll never get the best out of the bike - hence why purists don't like them. To some extent, if you need these then maybe you'd be better off with flat bars ( :shock: ) - I'd say it is probably a bit of a last resort solution......

Trickle

Fi31 wrote:

Hope someone can help? - I have a Trek female specific road bike and as i'm a relative newbie to road bikes I don't ride too often in the drops yet... any ideas or suggestions to help please?

I would persevere with the drops. Getting comfortable changing to them if you feel you need braking power at least gives you an option when you are in a pinch.

My first couple of rides on the road bike after years of only mountain biking I just couldn't understand how people used road bike style drop bars. But after a few miles the brake leavers seemed to ease up a bit and I could actually stop the thing on slight hills with two pinkies. Not really safe though and I still needed to use the drops to brake confidently.

So I continued for a while at a stage where I still felt under braked at times but struggled to change confidently and quickly enough to drops. And I think I just seemed to accept it as 'fact' that hoods must naturally be unsafe and just get on with it. So instead concentrated on why I was struggling a little with moving back and forth between the drops.

And now I actually enjoy using the drops more (my back doesn't!) I'm surprised to find I no longer need too. Go figure. Sorry I can't pinpoint for you when I went from being genuinely scared about braking on the hoods round town to now not thinking about it and somehow finding loads of braking power from them. Maybe the shifters have just eased up a bit over the miles.

woodywmb

Rolf F wrote:

if you use these to avoid using the drops you'll never get the best out of the bike - hence why purists don't like them.

I accept that to a certain extent. I rarely use the main brake levers now. In my own case I went from cycling once or twice a week to five times a week. On that basis, I am indeed getting the best out of the bike. I would previously think twice about going out on a club cycle with lots of cyclists or follow a route with steep descents. I enjoy being in the drops as much as I enjoy all the other hand positions around the handlebars, hence the reason for not choosing a flat bar bike.

canny_lad

Rolf F wrote:

Woodywmb wrote:

I recommend you get them if you want to enjoy riding your bike with complete confidence. You never need worry about stem length or turning it upside down - or fiddling with wedges to prop the levers open a bit.
http://tinyurl.com/BRAKEsolution

The problem is though that if you use these to avoid using the drops you'll never get the best out of the bike - hence why purists don't like them. To some extent, if you need these then maybe you'd be better off with flat bars ( :shock: ) - I'd say it is probably a bit of a last resort solution......

Disagree. I had a CX bike as my first road bike and the suicide levers helped a lot with my confidence whilst getting used to the bike. I had them removed after 6 months as they were getting in the way but I was a lot more confident by then.

You can pick Specialized levers up on ebay for buttons. Deffo worth a try. Good luck.

rolf_f

Canny lad wrote:

Disagree. I had a CX bike as my first road bike and the suicide levers helped a lot with my confidence whilst getting used to the bike. I had them removed after 6 months as they were getting in the way but I was a lot more confident by then.

You can pick Specialized levers up on ebay for buttons. Deffo worth a try. Good luck.

Are you sure you disagree?! What I said was that the problem is if you use those levers to avoid using the drops, you won't get the best out of the bike. Clearly that isn't what you did.

Incidentally, I doubt that you had suicide levers on your bike. I guess you had interrupter levers which are these:



Suicide levers are these: (a totally different thing and much less effective hence the name)

canny_lad

Apologies on 2 counts Rolf. Didn't read your post carefully enough and was sure I'd heard the little levers referred to as suicide brakes somewhere. I remember those god awful things from my teenage years, not sure I'm thankful for being reminded about them

Pezzle

Hi FI31 I have the same issue. I'm quite a new to road biking having come from MTB background. My Giant Avail came with the brakes on the top of the bars and I've found them quite useful in getting my confidence up. I probably use them less now that I'm used to riding on the hoods and drops, but they definately helped me out. Like you I find it hard to brake from the hoods, but have just ordered some of the shims to move the levers in a bit, so will let you know how it goes.

Daz555

Extra levers have been seen on Roubaix and Flanders races this season - the purists can go and find someone else to bother!

rolf_f

Canny lad wrote:

Apologies on 2 counts Rolf. Didn't read your post carefully enough and was sure I'd heard the little levers referred to as suicide brakes somewhere. I remember those god awful things from my teenage years, not sure I'm thankful for being reminded about them

I remember them from more recently than that from a Carlton I renovated for a friend. The combination of suicide levers, Weinmann centre pull brakes made of ripe brie and Yorkshire 20% gradients is completely unforgetable assuming you live to tell the tale!

lotus49

A couple of riders were using CX style interrupter levers during Paris Roubaix yesterday. If that isn't a good enough example to avoid sneers from the "purists", I don't know what is.

oldwelshman

It is not about the strength you have in hands, more about brake set up.
I brake on hoods about 99% of time and use index and second fingers only.
I set up brakes to be close to rim so less travel required on levers.

Fi31

Rolf - Tried a bit on the flat and yes, can build my confidence to go into drops - and managed a bit in a descent - definitely more control, but have realised that my stretch whether on hoods or drops is not very good - even in drops only managed to get 2 fingertips onto brake levers so may look at the ultegra set up you were talking about - yes costly, but worth it in the long run i'd say - may even give me an excuse to go for a higher spec bike all round

thanks for your tips

Fi

rolf_f

Fi31 wrote:

Rolf - Tried a bit on the flat and yes, can build my confidence to go into drops - and managed a bit in a descent - definitely more control, but have realised that my stretch whether on hoods or drops is not very good - even in drops only managed to get 2 fingertips onto brake levers so may look at the ultegra set up you were talking about - yes costly, but worth it in the long run i'd say - may even give me an excuse to go for a higher spec bike all round

thanks for your tips

Fi

Just to make sure you are clear - these are the shifters I was talking about.



They aren't labelled as Ultegra but I think they are that level. I daresay a price comparison will confirm it. I think they are oldish stock as a friend of mine, well over a year ago, told me they were discontinued. Don't know how many other sources there are but this Ebay one does come up as currently available at least.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-R700-STI-levers-short-reach-10-speed-Double-Triple-/160891673041#vi-content
They also list an R600 for 9 speed.

User review here that you might relate to! http://www.roadbikereview.com/cat/controls/shifters/shimano/st-r700/prd_404240_2511crx.aspx

I think the hoods themselves are smaller as well as having the shim options.

philwint

I'm not sure if it is the same on their mechanical counterparts but my Di2 Ultegra shifters have a screw to adjust the reach rather than shims.

Very easy to set up precisely the reach you want.

Wouldn't be at all surprised to find the latest mechanical ones are the same.

rolf_f

philwint wrote:

I'm not sure if it is the same on their mechanical counterparts but my Di2 Ultegra shifters have a screw to adjust the reach rather than shims.

Very easy to set up precisely the reach you want.

Wouldn't be at all surprised to find the latest mechanical ones are the same.

That still doesn't help with the enormous lever bodies though. I think there is only so much you can do with shims. That said, there is probably plenty of discussion to be found on the net with a bit of careful Googling as to whether the current levers are a substitute for the short reach design.

philwint

Rolf F wrote:

That still doesn't help with the enormous lever bodies though. I think there is only so much you can do with shims. That said, there is probably plenty of discussion to be found on the net with a bit of careful Googling as to whether the current levers are a substitute for the short reach design.

I'd probably not sufficiently considered small hands - mine are fairly large - so I gan wrap at least 3 finders round the lever from the hood.....