Scott foil - another fan

Mickyg88

Currently have a scott cr1, however my son has taken up riding and is using my ridgeback hybrid but has decided he now wants a full road bike. Being the good dad I'm considering giving him the cr1 and getting a foil for myself (a big scott fan)
The reality is I'm 66 now and find the cr1 fantastic to ride, so my question is will the foil be to racy a ride for me, I don't have a dealer nearby with my size in stock to test ride, so hopefully the scott experts on here may be able to offer good advice, Grill for instance seems to be a foil expert, although I'm sure there are others, so should I go for a foil or would I be wiser to get another cr1 for myself considering my age.

PS the best I could run to is the Scott Foil 40 which I can't find at any less than full price.

crikey

66 is nearly dead!

Get a Foil quickly!

Mickyg88

Cheers Crikey, not much time left for me ...

canny_lad

Have you tried Epic in Ludlow Micky, very keen prices there? I ride a CR1 too but know what you mean, those Foil's are great looking bikes

Mickyg88

Looked at Epic and they are still full price, a bit far for me to travel, I'm in St Annes, Lancs., but thanks Canny Lad for the reply.

crikey

Supposedly a new Addict style bike is being used by Orica-Green Edge in the Classics, might mean that Foils get cheaper.

I got an Addict, didn't think they'd come back into fashion so quick!

Grill

Mickyg88 wrote:

Looked at Epic and they are still full price, a bit far for me to travel, I'm in St Annes, Lancs., but thanks Canny Lad for the reply.

Did you call them? I got mine for way less than was advertised on their site.

Mickyg88

Not called them Grill, was hoping for advice re the suitability of the foil for me before pursuing it, my local scott dealer price matched the CR1 for me, hopefully can do the same for the foil, just hasn't got my size to try.

Grill

TBH if you're 66 the Foil may lack the compliance you need. They have demos at Epic if you phone ahead, but in reality you'd be better served by a new CR1 (they've changed over the years) or you could wait until they release the new Addict in a few months.

Mickyg88

Thanks Grill for the honest reply, I was expecting that really but which scott fan wouldn't hanker after a foil, and no doubt the new addict will be a full on race bike, so cr1 again for me, hopefully this time I can get the ultegra build for the money I would spend on a foil 40.

Grill

I wouldn't be so sure about the harshness of he new Addict. OGE used it for Flanders and I bet you'll see it at Paris-Roubaix this weekend as well. It's totally possibly to build a stiff bike that's also comfy (round tubing helps immensely), after all Parlee ave been doing it for years. If you can't wait that long you won't go wrong with another CR1.

Ron Stuart

Grill wrote:

TBH if you're 66 the Foil may lack the compliance you need. They have demos at Epic if you phone ahead, but in reality you'd be better served by a new CR1 (they've changed over the years) or you could wait until they release the new Addict in a few months.

I'm 62, ex dingy sailing champ, and rider of the previous Addict and I can safely say that a fit 60 something year old will have no problem with the new Addict which is a much more honest bike than the flawed Foil with it's pseudo aero claims and leaky seat tube attachment.

A 60 something riding the Malhao 50 mins before Henao won the stage in the Volta ao Algarve....

jordan_217

What CR1 do you have? The newer 'relaxed' geometry one, or the older one, ca. 2006-2009?

Ron Stuart

crikey wrote:

66 is nearly dead!

Get a Foil quickly!

Trevor Fenwick still races in Belgium :!: check this out http://www.tour-racing.co.uk/html/1951_ ... itain.html Trevor was rider No 31 racing for Pennine Accessories. Met Trevor in the Algarve this year up the Monchique Mountain range!

I do this event each year http://www.shropshirehighlandschallenge.co.uk/ with Tony Hewson cycling author, Tour de France man and winner of the Tour of Britain in 1955.

Ron Stuart

jordan_217 wrote:

What CR1 do you have? The newer 'relaxed' geometry one, or the older one, ca. 2006-2009?

If you are referring to the photo it's a Scott Addict R2.

john1967

There's nothing flawed or leaky on my foil.

goonz

Great looking bike, a mate saw one on his way home last night at Pitsea station and texted me a picture. It was the Foil Premium! A c£10k bike! Oozes class.

jordan_217

Ron Stuart wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

What CR1 do you have? The newer 'relaxed' geometry one, or the older one, ca. 2006-2009?

If you are referring to the photo it's a Scott Addict R2.

Sorry, that was for the OP.

Mickyg88

My CR1 is the newer model, a 2011 comp, very comfortable for me to ride, nothing to compare it with as its my first ever road bike, but suits me down to the ground, never had a bike fit on it, the lbs where I bought it just set it up for me when I picked it up.

paul2718

There are two essential differences between the CR1 and the Foil. The first is that the CR1 has some sort of comfort enhancing frame bits and the second is that the Foil is longer and lower at the front for a given frame size. I think the former really isn't significant but the latter may be.

In a 56cm frame the Foil is 5mm longer and 15mm lower. So if you are happy on a CR1 but you could go to the next longer stem length and drop the bars by 3 spacers then you will be fine on a Foil. You can obviously adjust the Foil to bring it nearer to whatever setup you use now. But it would be a shame to have a racy bike with an upwards pointing stem...

I had a CR1 for a year, I thought I needed something 'relaxed' as a middle-aged beginner. After it was stolen I replaced it with an Addict that happened to be hanging on the wall of the LBS. I didn't notice the comfort change, and the longer/lower suits me. It's like free speed...

So basically it's all down to the condition of your back.

Paul

Grill

Ron Stuart wrote:

Grill wrote:

TBH if you're 66 the Foil may lack the compliance you need. They have demos at Epic if you phone ahead, but in reality you'd be better served by a new CR1 (they've changed over the years) or you could wait until they release the new Addict in a few months.

I'm 62, ex dingy sailing champ, and rider of the previous Addict and I can safely say that a fit 60 something year old will have no problem with the new Addict which is a much more honest bike than the flawed Foil with it's pseudo aero claims and leaky seat tube attachment.

Beg your pardon? No bike is perfect, but your contentions are flawed.

There is nothing wrong with the seat clamp. The broken ones of old were caused by people over-tightening the bolt and cracking the carbon. This happens on all carbon when it is over-torqued.

The aero claims are real and tunnel-tested (with rider unlike Cervelo of old). I do 12hr and 24hr TTs on my Foil and wattage savings at speed are real, and it's noticeably more stable and deeper yaw angles, especially when windy. Kamm aero principles are solid. Why do you think the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight look the way they do? Now if you don't ride over 20mph (and tbh 25mph is the money speed) then you won't get much out of it, but it's still a hell of a bike.

Ron Stuart

Grill wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

Grill wrote:

TBH if you're 66 the Foil may lack the compliance you need. They have demos at Epic if you phone ahead, but in reality you'd be better served by a new CR1 (they've changed over the years) or you could wait until they release the new Addict in a few months.

I'm 62, ex dingy sailing champ, and rider of the previous Addict and I can safely say that a fit 60 something year old will have no problem with the new Addict which is a much more honest bike than the flawed Foil with it's pseudo aero claims and leaky seat tube attachment.

Beg your pardon? No bike is perfect, but your contentions are flawed.

There is nothing wrong with the seat clamp. The broken ones of old were caused by people over-tightening the bolt and cracking the carbon. This happens on all carbon when it is over-torqued.

The aero claims are real and tunnel-tested (with rider unlike Cervelo of old). I do 12hr and 24hr TTs on my Foil and wattage savings at speed are real, and it's noticeably more stable and deeper yaw angles, especially when windy. Kamm aero principles are solid. Why do you think the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight look the way they do? Now if you don't ride over 20mph (and tbh 25mph is the money speed) then you won't get much out of it, but it's still a hell of a bike.

Spent 40 years involved with sailing I know all about foils both above and below the water, the computer diagrams produced by Scott to indicate smooth flow have fake extensions to mimic non-truncated sections giving a false impression of smooth tail flow. Heavily truncated rear sections produce a low pressure zone behind the section (this is why it is very easy to follow a broad peloton/bus etc). Also a low pressure zone at the rear would have the effect of pulling the section backwards, this is the same low pressure that enables aircraft to fly through lift. There is also a lot of turbulence also created by heavily truncated sections which in itself just produces drag again.
There is nothing wrong with your bike (it's just not aero) neither were Cervelos in anything other than no wind, block head wind or block tail wind because of the increased drag cause by deep sections in side wind conditions (sky dropped the long tail helmets because of this) this deep section penalty doesn't apply to the foil because of the truncated sections. So why would they do this is a good question, my guess is 'fashion with a difference' a marketing ploy. It is also interesting that Scott have dispensed with the method of retaining the seat post like the Foil and returned to the more traditional clamp, maybe just marketing again eh?

Grill

You do realize that UCI regs mean that you can only use a 3:1 airfoil, thus the truncation without sacrificing stiffness, and you can't deny that kammbacks work. You'll notice that Trek, Giant, Canyon and others have adopted the same design.

So your 40 years as a sailing champ was spent in wind tunnels and studying CFD models? Really? I don't doubt you're knowledgeable on the subject, but apples and oranges my friend.

Scott have not dispensed with their integrated seatpost clamp. The only model with said clamp is the Foil and it's still there. The Plasma 3 frameset has also had an integrated seat clamp since its inception and for 2013 it's moved to all other Plasma models that use the Plasma 2 frameset (replacing the ISP). There is not reason to use the clamp on other bikes as marginal aero gains are not their focus and there's also the fact that they use standard (instead of proprietary) seatposts.

Cycling is all about marginal gains. Major manufacturers wouldn't continue to invest the time and money to develop and market aero road bikes if the gains weren't there. It's not like they're making bank on these as they only make up a very small market share.

Ron Stuart

Grill wrote:

You do realize that UCI regs mean that you can only use a 3:1 airfoil, thus the truncation without sacrificing stiffness, and you can't deny that kammbacks work. You'll notice that Trek, Giant, Canyon and others have adopted the same design.

So your 40 years as a sailing champ was spent in wind tunnels and studying CFD models? Really? I don't doubt you're knowledgeable on the subject, but apples and oranges my friend.

Scott have not dispensed with their integrated seatpost clamp. The only model with said clamp is the Foil and it's still there. The Plasma 3 frameset has also had an integrated seat clamp since its inception and for 2013 it's moved to all other Plasma models that use the Plasma 2 frameset (replacing the ISP). There is not reason to use the clamp on other bikes as marginal aero gains are not their focus and there's also the fact that they use standard (instead of proprietary) seatposts.

Cycling is all about marginal gains. Major manufacturers wouldn't continue to invest the time and money to develop and market aero road bikes if the gains weren't there. It's not like they're making bank on these as they only make up a very small market share.

When words fail....



:shock:

john1967

Now that's aero but it ain't stiff.

kafkathedog

So changing direction slightly. I was looking at the foil a while ago but now think a CR1 would be more suitable for me.

BR mentioned flex in the forks/headtube in its review recently, has anyone noticed this? seemed to be the only point they were critical on.

Grill

I find that wheel flex is sometimes attributed (wrongly) to the fork. Not to say it my not happen, but unless you're quite heavy or a powerhouse out of the saddle I very much doubt you'll find it noticeable (if it's even there).

lc1981

Ron Stuart wrote:

I'm 62, ex dingy sailing champ, and rider of the previous Addict and I can safely say that a fit 60 something year old will have no problem with the new Addict which is a much more honest bike than the flawed Foil with it's pseudo aero claims and leaky seat tube attachment.

A 60 something riding the Malhao 50 mins before Henao won the stage in the Volta ao Algarve....

I hope I look like that when I'm 62.