Can some one explain "threshold"

elderone

I have seen this a lot lately and wondered what it exactly is from a cycling point of view.I guess I,d like to know if it,s something I already do in training without actually calling it that name.


Search brings ups lots of posts with threshold in the post,but gave up lookin for the definition.

Grill

http://themikehermanson.com/understanding-and-applying-ftp-and-lactate-threshold/

elderone

Thanks Grill,that,s answered that question.I don,t have a power meter though.
So using a HRM would 85% of my max (170)be a good place to train at threshold.This is for general riding fitness,not racing or TT rides.
cheers.

Grill

Training by heart rate is alchemy. Before I got my PM I did my 10s at 160ish bpm. Now I'm a bit over 170 which isn't something I had the capability of doing. Are you sure your max is 170? Have you done a proper max test where you throw up?

chrisaonabike

Grill wrote:

Have you done a proper max test where you throw up?

That sounds like fun. Throw up?????

elderone

No i havn,t done a test,just the 220 -age rule.To be honest it worries me getting Hr up near max.Think the longest i,ve gone is about 25mins at between 150 and 160 bpm up a hill,but ive seen 173 as my highest.
Im training for sportives with longer climbs so the end game is to learn how to train for longer climbs at a sustainable HR.

Throwing up I could cope with,but keeling over would definately spoil my day

danlikesbikes

ChrisAOnABike wrote:

Grill wrote:

Have you done a proper max test where you throw up?

That sounds like fun. Throw up?????

Pretty common side effect of being at your threshold. Never done it myself whilst on the bike but a few times on the run leg of a hard Tri race, not nice but posted my PB so can't have done me any harm.

Grill

elderone wrote:

No i havn,t done a test,just the 220 -age rule.To be honest it worries me getting Hr up near max.Think the longest i,ve gone is about 25mins at between 150 and 160 bpm up a hill,but ive seen 173 as my highest.
Im training for sportives with longer climbs so the end game is to learn how to train for longer climbs at a sustainable HR.

Throwing up I could cope with,but keeling over would definitely spoil my day

You don't know your max. You need 3 things: a bike, a turbo, and a bucket. A friend to shout abuse at you and hold the bucket is preferable, but not necessary. Don't attempt it on a day you don't feel strong.

team47b

stole this from somewhere can't remember where so can't credit it ...

Maximum HR
Many believe that you can calculate your maximum HR by using the formula of 220 minus your age. For some people this may be accurate, but for many it will be wildly out. I’m 54 years old so, using the formula, my max HR should be 166 (220-54). It’s actually 178, which is a big difference when training in very tight zones.

A much more accurate formula is 210 minus half your age, then subtract 5% of your body weight in pounds. Add four for a male and 0 for a female. The only way to get a truly accurate max HR figure is to get a physiological test at a sport science centre, but you can get a reasonable estimate by doing your own max HR test. Only undertake this test if you are fit and exercise regularly, though.

Warm up thoroughly for at least 15 minutes. On a long, steady hill start off fairly briskly and increase your effort every minute. Do this seated for at least five minutes until you can’t go any faster. At this point get out of the saddle and sprint as hard as you can for 15 seconds. Stop and get off the bike and immediately check your HR reading. This is your max HR.


...I tried this by simulating the test on a turbo, without a bucket (live dangerously), and the formula above seemed to coincide nicely with the test

chrisaonabike

team47b wrote:

A much more accurate formula is 210 minus half your age, then subtract 5% of your body weight in pounds. Add four for a male and 0 for a female.

DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about this stuff, I just googled a bit, and found this:

http://www.racedaynutrition.com/HeartRate.aspx

... which refers to the Heart Zones formula, which is very similar to yours except that it subtracts 10% of your weight, not 5%.

Your method works out at 181 for me (age 50, weight 160 lbs), which seems very high. I would be experiencing considerable distress if I was exercising at that level.

Whereas the HZ formula gives 173 - a lot closer to the trad "220-age" method.

However, I also found this:

http://www.howtobefit.com/determine-max ... t-rate.htm, which cites the same 5% figure as you, and supposedly comes from the originator of the HZ training method.

So if my max was 181, 90% of max would be 163. That's about as much as I can do without starting to feel bad. How close to max can people get and still feel ok? I don't fancy Grill's chundering much.

ThatBikeGuy

My max recorded HR is 201 going up hill, not entirely sure how accurate that reading was though i was using a garmin 800. Felt like i could push a bit more but surely anything over 200 is a bit too high?

I am only 21 y/o for reference.

simon_e

A max HR test won't tell you what your threshold is, though it will mean you can work out zones of % HR. However, learning to ride on 'feel' (RPE) is underrated IMHO.

elderone wrote:

Im training for sportives with longer climbs so the end game is to learn how to train for longer climbs at a sustainable HR.

Then ride up hills at a pace and at a HR you can sustain. Time yourself. Do the same one(s) regularly and compare times.

You have plenty of useful climbs near you, such as the one up to the Oswestry Racecourse from the road to Trefonen (did that in the OPCC hilly last week), which is better than the main climb; also Glyn Ceiriog over to Selattyn and even Llangynog over to Bala. The Horseshoe Pass to Ruthin & back is only just up the A5.

As well as doing long-and-steady, riding a series of shorter climbs at higher intensity with easy sections in between will work like intervals and will allow you to push a bit harder, knowing it's not as long and you will have recovery time before you get to the next one.

marylogic

ThatBikeGuy wrote:

My max recorded HR is 201 going up hill, not entirely sure how accurate that reading was though i was using a garmin 800. Felt like i could push a bit more but surely anything over 200 is a bit too high?

I am only 21 y/o for reference.

Nope not too high. I'm an aged 37 and get 202 - 203 doing hill reps

The calculations are pretty worthless there is too much individual variation.

elderone

Some good reading there and as Chris says,most are close to the 220-age rating.So short of puking up i,ll accept mines between 170-174 and work zones around that.
My original question has been answered so thanks lads and the bucket can stay where it belongs,outside.

That bike guy,yours seems ok with your age so don,t worry.

imposter2.0

Simplistically, 'threshold' is the highest effort you can maintain for a prolonged period (anything up to an hour) without going into the red. Going 'into the red' puts you over threshold and into a level of effort which becomes painful, which you could only sustain for minutes at best. If you have a heart rate monitor (and assuming you know your true max HR), threshold would be somewhere around 89-92% in a reasonably well-trained rider.

220-age is potentially very inaccurate as a measure of MHR. My own max is 15bpm higher than the 220 calculation suggests. Finally, anyone suggesting that you cannot hit MHR without 'throwing up' is being overly-dramatic.

elderone

Simon E wrote:

A max HR test won't tell you what your threshold is, though it will mean you can work out zones of % HR. However, learning to ride on 'feel' (RPE) is underrated IMHO.

elderone wrote:

Im training for sportives with longer climbs so the end game is to learn how to train for longer climbs at a sustainable HR.

Then ride up hills at a pace and at a HR you can sustain. Time yourself. Do the same one(s) regularly and compare times.

You have plenty of useful climbs near you, such as the one up to the Oswestry Racecourse from the road to Trefonen (did that in the OPCC hilly last week), which is better than the main climb; also Glyn Ceiriog over to Selattyn and even Llangynog over to Bala. The Horseshoe Pass to Ruthin & back is only just up the A5.

As well as doing long-and-steady, riding a series of shorter climbs at higher intensity with easy sections in between will work like intervals and will allow you to push a bit harder, knowing it's not as long and you will have recovery time before you get to the next one.

Hi Simon,I do all those hills as I live along trefonen road and as I said in Op my biggest effort was 25 mins at 150-160 which was horse shoe pass climb.I think that,s the zone I need to work on.
I watched the tt last sat.I was on blodwell bank (near top with motorcycle) for first half,then on the steep bit of race coarse climb for second lot of riders(25-54).Stood with another chap cheering people on.What number were you.

simon_e

elderone wrote:

Hi Simon,I do all those hills as I live along trefonen road and as I said in Op my biggest effort was 25 mins at 150-160 which was horse shoe pass climb.I think that,s the zone I need to work on.
I watched the tt last sat.I was on blodwell bank (near top with motorcycle) for first half,then on the steep bit of race coarse climb for second lot of riders(25-54).Stood with another chap cheering people on.What number were you.

No. 24, yellow top with MSW in large letters. I saw a chap on a motorbike (GPZ500?) twice, I think it was those places, wondered if he was waiting for a mate of his behind me. The encouragement is always welcome! Both 25 and 26 had passed me by the second climb. Over 2mins faster than last year, so quite pleased.

If you do 2 or 3 longer efforts at that kind of level it will help with your endurance and prepare you for events with several long climbs. That lane to the Racecourse is quiet and has a consistent gradient. You could go easy down the steeper hill past the Mount, turn right at the bottom and go round a second time.

daviegb

The 220 minus age calculation isn't accurate - I'm 49 & my max heart rate riding this year has been 198. My threshold is in the region of 180, based on a 20 minute warm up, 10 minute steady state effort, 20 minute threshold test & 10 minute warm down.

As Imposter says, it's uncomfortable & doesn't have to involve a bucket! If you ride for fitness & enjoyment, there's no need to make it too unpleasant, however, once you have a PB up a climb it becomes a bit addictive trying to beat it!!!

elderone

Simon E wrote:

elderone wrote:

Hi Simon,I do all those hills as I live along trefonen road and as I said in Op my biggest effort was 25 mins at 150-160 which was horse shoe pass climb.I think that,s the zone I need to work on.
I watched the tt last sat.I was on blodwell bank (near top with motorcycle) for first half,then on the steep bit of race coarse climb for second lot of riders(25-54).Stood with another chap cheering people on.What number were you.

No. 24, yellow top with MSW in large letters. I saw a chap on a motorbike (GPZ500?) twice, I think it was those places, wondered if he was waiting for a mate of his behind me. The encouragement is always welcome! Both 25 and 26 had passed me by the second climb. Over 2mins faster than last year, so quite pleased.

If you do 2 or 3 longer efforts at that kind of level it will help with your endurance and prepare you for events with several long climbs. That lane to the Racecourse is quiet and has a consistent gradient. You could go easy down the steeper hill past the Mount, turn right at the bottom and go round a second time.

Yep, that was me with gpz its my winter bike.I wasn,t watching anyone in particular,just seeing what a TT was all about.Seemed lot of heavy breathing,dribble and snot but the differnce between riders climbing was most impressive.Hope fully will enter next year.
Once weather improves i,ll start hill reps as I like the race coarse then left at top and back up the 17% bit before down to town.

elderone

daviegb wrote:

The 220 minus age calculation isn't accurate - I'm 49 & my max heart rate riding this year has been 198. My threshold is in the region of 180, based on a 20 minute warm up, 10 minute steady state effort, 20 minute threshold test & 10 minute warm down.

As Imposter says, it's uncomfortable & doesn't have to involve a bucket! If you ride for fitness & enjoyment, there's no need to make it too unpleasant, however, once you have a PB up a climb it becomes a bit addictive trying to beat it!!!

Blimey that does show a massive variation.As you say,it,s just for fitness and enjoyment for me but strava does egg you on.

markos1963

I thought I could do a MHR test myself using a hill but it doesn't work, we all ride according to our gears and feel etc so it's very difficult to push past the normal area of comfort to get to MHR. I paid out to have a proper ramp test at a cycle clinic. There I not only got a proper ramp test done with a coach I was able to get power figures and an analysis of my pedal stroke as well. It was worth the money for this as I have now reset my training goals for the year. You don't need a bucket for the test, or at least I didn't, I think this sort of scare mongering puts people off doing MHR tests. Yes it is uncomfortable, you won't want to do it again for a while but ultimately it will improve your riding.

danowat

markos1963 wrote:

You don't need a bucket for the test, or at least I didn't, I think this sort of scare mongering puts people off doing MHR tests. Yes it is uncomfortable, you won't want to do it again for a while but ultimately it will improve your riding.

Grill

It's waaay more fun with a bucket!

simon_e

elderone wrote:

Yep, that was me with gpz its my winter bike.I wasn,t watching anyone in particular,just seeing what a TT was all about.Seemed lot of heavy breathing,dribble and snot but the differnce between riders climbing was most impressive.Hope fully will enter next year.
Once weather improves i,ll start hill reps as I like the race coarse then left at top and back up the 17% bit before down to town.

Time trialling is only as hard as you want to make it. The OPCC hilly is about as steep as it gets around here, I'm sure you'd be fine. Riders certainly earn their cake and cuppa

Wrexham hilly 24 in April goes up the Horseshoe to Ruthin and back, and their Horseshoe hill climb is a popular end of season event in early October. Can definitely recommend that one.

If you want to have a go then North Shropshire Wheelers, Oswestry Paragon and MSW run 10 mile club events where you can turn up and enter on the line for £3/£4. Dates etc for ours are here. Anyone is welcome to turn up at Westbury, we get riders of all ages from 12 to 80+ and there's a really nice social atmosphere at the Lion Inn after (beer and tasty food served until late).

The '220 minus age' figure has been rubbished many times. I'm 46 and the highest I've seen on the one occasion I wore a HRM is 186 bpm, which may not be my absolute max.

elderone

Thanks Simon,the chap I was standing with on the race coarse climb was from wrexham,he had also come to watch,and told me about the wrexham one.I will go and watch that as thats a proper climb.Thanks for the link I will come and have a look.