1st Set of Carbon Wheels

jai7783

I'm looking at getting a set of carbon wheels. I have seen a set of Shimano RS80 C50 for £500 on PlanetX. I was originally saving for a set of Cosmic SL's which are around £250 more give or take a tenner.

Are the cosmics worth the extra £250?


Any experiences/advice would be most welcome.

smidsy

I thought you wanted a set of carbon wheels?

miker

smidsy wrote:

I thought you wanted a set of carbon wheels?

Pretty helpful post!!
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... t-11-44503

Yup just checking that rs80's and cosmic carbones are carbon......

mitchgixer6

I think Smidsy was making the point that both those sets of wheels are really just an aluminium clincher with a carbon fairing. If you're being pedantic (smidsy) then I suppose they aren't really full carbon wheels.

What are you going to be using them for? Racing or posing?

jai7783

I'm hoping to compete in both time trials and road races. Ive not competed before and at the moment I'm not bothered about weights, stiffness and generally comparing how much carbon I have against the next bloke. Maybe in a year or twos time I may reach a level where that stuff matters, but for now I want a nice set of wheels for less than £800!

mitchgixer6

In that case I would suggest some full carbon tubulars such as the planet X 50mm wheel sets. They will be much lighter than the ones you are looking at and as such will be faster. They are also much cheaper than the others so you would have money left for a nice set of clinchers for training!

smidsy

miker wrote:

smidsy wrote:

I thought you wanted a set of carbon wheels?

Pretty helpful post!!
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... t-11-44503

Yup just checking that rs80's and cosmic carbones are carbon......

No they are aluminium rims (not just brake surface) with plastic stuck onto them.

(From your very own review link)
'Using the same rim as the Dura-Ace WH-7850 wheelset, the deep carbon section is used in conjunction with an aluminium tyre bed and braking surface to create a good all-round (no pun intended) rim.'

They may well be perfect for the OP but please do not part with your money under the misaprehension that they are in any way carbon rims.

There is a post on here with a video of the mavics clearly showing they plastic coming away from the aluminium rim.
viewtopic.php?f=40004&t=12908101#p18171684
Watch the video and then come back and tell me you want some.

So if you really want carbon wheels look elsewhere.

smidsy

mitchgixer6 wrote:

I think Smidsy was making the point that both those sets of wheels are really just an aluminium clincher with a carbon fairing. If you're being pedantic (smidsy) then I suppose they aren't really full carbon wheels.

You correctly identify the issue yet still say I am being pedantic :roll:

They are absolute junk, overpriced, confusingly marketed and seriously over rated.

They are in no way carbon rims.

Gabbo

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/news/107-50 ... click-here

And this la - http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/sites/defau ... G_0422.JPG

ShutUpLegs

Can someone recommend some wheels that look like carbon for £800?

meesterbond

smidsy wrote:

They are absolute junk, overpriced, confusingly marketed and seriously over rated.

They are in no way carbon rims.

Have you actually owned or even used them? Just wondering what your expert assessment is based on...

jordan_217

ShutUpLegs wrote:

Can someone recommend some wheels that look like carbon for £800?

I have just finished building some nice carbon rims, shallow profile on Mavic hubs. I was looking for £650 posted*





*actual wheelset may resemble some 6 year old Mavic Aksiums which have been covered in a carbon effect vinyl wrap. (Smidsy won't judge you either as you can pretend that they are handmade and not actually Mavics, sssh)

ugo.santalucia

The mix alloy-carbon clinchers are quite heavy rims, typically well in excess of 500 grams per piece... infact you can probably compare them with something like H plus Son SL 42, which do look like carbon rims, but they are infact full alloy and weigh 620 grams per piece.
The difference in price between these and any carbon/alloy rim is staggering though, you are looking at 3-4 times the price

Food for thoughts...

smidsy

meesterbond wrote:

smidsy wrote:

They are absolute junk, overpriced, confusingly marketed and seriously over rated.

They are in no way carbon rims.

Have you actually owned or even used them? Just wondering what your expert assessment is based on...

I have ridden on some Mavic comics and they are fine as a wheel (i.e it goes round and stops your forks hitting the floor).

I accept my language is somewhat immotive, I just get incensed at the way Mavic (and others) mislead folk with clever marketing and glossy write-ups.

Wheels such as the comics and RS80 C50's etc. are nothing more than an aluminium rim with carbon bits attached. The structure of the wheel has little to do with the carbon (you could take it off and the wheel would still work) and it annoys me that people may get hoodwinked into thinking they are getting something more than the sum of the (often not too well assembled) parts.

Add in the cost of repairs, poor availabilty of spares and the stupid RRP of such wheels and you really do start to question their VFM.

I accept there are plenty of happy customers but when people ask opinions before parting with their hard earned I just feel they should go into the purchase knowing what they are actually buying.

If they do that and they still feel they are the wheels for them, who am I to judge.

smidsy

jordan_217 wrote:

*actual wheelset may resemble some 6 year old Mavic Aksiums which have been covered in a carbon effect vinyl wrap. (Smidsy won't judge you either as you can pretend that they are handmade and not actually Mavics, sssh)

I am not judging anyone (well maybe Mavic) I simply want to get people to understand what they are getting before they spend their money.

If they buy with the full knowledge then fair enough (I suppose). :?

meesterbond

If you look at the Mavic website for the Cosmic Carbone SLs, which it's pretty reasonable to expect someone spending £800 on anything to do, then it states they are:

12 K carbon flanges bonded on superlight alloy rims

Whilst 'superlight' might be stretching things (I've no idea how much the rims weigh by themselves to be honest), the description isn't particularly misleading.

I've had 4 years on mine to date and they're still true and haven't fallen apart or killed me once and given how many thousands of pairs they must have sold, I've not seen a disproportionate number of failures on the internet - particularly how vociferously everyone went after the R-Sys wheels - so no reason to believe that they're poorly made either. I've never had to replace or repair anything on any of the four sets of Mavics I've had so I wouldn't know how hard or expensive it is to get a replacement. Actually, that's not true, I properly destroyed a pair of Crossmax MTB wheels a few years back but they were past any sort of restoration so I binned them.

Weight-wise the Planet X carbon 50 tubs are only 250-300g lighter (which this board constantly reminds us is half a water bottle or a large turd) and on a road bike, I'd still prefer (and actually use) the Cosmics. Braking on the Planet X wheels is decidedly sketchy in the wet so I leave them on the TT bike. You could argue that with comparable aerodynamics and much better braking, the Cosmics would be the smart choice, although it would be nice if they were a little lighter and a bit cheaper.

This forum goes in phases... a few months ago the default answer to 'the wheel question' was 'Cosmic Elites', I'm sure I remember it being C50s before that and now it's handbuilt Archetypes on the hub of your choice, with the Chinese option always floating in the background. None of them have suddenly become wrong, it's just that its human nature to give a populist response.

Anyway, rambling now... I think my point was that Cosmic Carbones are a perfectly fine choice and they make a cool whooshy noise when you get them spinning up to speed so the OP should definitely buy those.

mroli

smidsy wrote:

it annoys me that people may get hoodwinked into thinking they are getting something more than the sum of the (often not too well assembled) parts.

Do people really think that though? I mean, the carbon is just a fairing and that must be clear to everyone?

ugo.santalucia

meesterbond wrote:

If you look at the Mavic website for the Cosmic Carbone SLs, which it's pretty reasonable to expect someone spending £800 on anything to do, then it states they are:

12 K carbon flanges bonded on superlight alloy rims

Whilst 'superlight' might be stretching things (I've no idea how much the rims weigh by themselves to be honest), the description isn't particularly misleading.

I've had 4 years on mine to date and they're still true and haven't fallen apart or killed me once and given how many thousands of pairs they must have sold, I've not seen a disproportionate number of failures on the internet - particularly how vociferously everyone went after the R-Sys wheels - so no reason to believe that they're poorly made either. I've never had to replace or repair anything on any of the four sets of Mavics I've had so I wouldn't know how hard or expensive it is to get a replacement. Actually, that's not true, I properly destroyed a pair of Crossmax MTB wheels a few years back but they were past any sort of restoration so I binned them.

Weight-wise the Planet X carbon 50 tubs are only 250-300g lighter (which this board constantly reminds us is half a water bottle or a large turd) and on a road bike, I'd still prefer (and actually use) the Cosmics. Braking on the Planet X wheels is decidedly sketchy in the wet so I leave them on the TT bike. You could argue that with comparable aerodynamics and much better braking, the Cosmics would be the smart choice, although it would be nice if they were a little lighter and a bit cheaper.

This forum goes in phases... a few months ago the default answer to 'the wheel question' was 'Cosmic Elites', I'm sure I remember it being C50s before that and now it's handbuilt Archetypes on the hub of your choice, with the Chinese option always floating in the background. None of them have suddenly become wrong, it's just that its human nature to give a populist response.

Anyway, rambling now... I think my point was that Cosmic Carbones are a perfectly fine choice and they make a cool whooshy noise when you get them spinning up to speed so the OP should definitely buy those.

I think you are right...
It goes in waves of fashion, like everything... At the moment the Cosmic are not very fashionable... They had their days, although they are perfectly fine if that's what turn you or the OP on...
As for hand built archetype, for years we only had Open PRO, now we finally have something that not only rides well, but also looks 21st century... We obviously rave about it quite. Lot... 8)

mjbennett

Lets face it, most people get the deep dish rims cos they look good. They make a bike look like it means business. Most people will not reap the benefits that deep dish rims bring (although many will).
This in itself is not a problem. It's nice to feel good on a bike, and proud that you are happy with how the bike looks and feels.
Deep dish/carbon/cervelos/wiggle/rapha/di2 etc etc tend to make people hot under he collar. There really is no need. If someone wants to spend a small fortune on their bike to bling it up let them be...

ugo.santalucia

mjbennett wrote:

Lets face it, most people get the deep dish rims cos they look good. They make a bike look like it means business. Most people will not reap the benefits that deep dish rims bring (although many will).
This in itself is not a problem. It's nice to feel good on a bike, and proud that you are happy with how the bike looks and feels.
Deep dish/carbon/cervelos/wiggle/rapha/di2 etc etc tend to make people hot under he collar. There really is no need. If someone wants to spend a small fortune on their bike to bling it up let them be...

Absolutely... But if they ask for advice, is it not our duty to remind them that 800 pounds for some carbon foil glue on top of a 400 pounds wheel set is a bit steep?

EKIMIKE

For £800 you may as well get two set of carbon rims from China (maybe even try one set tubular, one set clincher?) and get them built up onto the hubs and spokes of your choice. More than achievable for the budget.

I did something similar but with hindsight probably went over the top and paid over the odds for CX-Ray spokes (over-priced) and Dati hubs (over the odds). Some more generic hubs and thick round (especially for the rear) spokes reduces costs further and probably makes for just as good if not better wheels at a minor penalty.

Have a look at my sig. for a better ideaof what i'm on about.

EKIMIKE

ugo.santalucia wrote:

But if they ask for advice, is it not our duty to remind them that 800 pounds for some carbon foil glue on top of a 400 pounds wheel set is a bit steep?

That's the nail hit firmly on the head!

mjbennett

EKIMIKE wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

But if they ask for advice, is it not our duty to remind them that 800 pounds for some carbon foil glue on top of a 400 pounds wheel set is a bit steep?

That's the nail hit firmly on the head!

Agreed. Yes it is, and most forum users are very very helpful

EKIMIKE

Interesting (going way off topic now) to see this from Mavic:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... ide-36705/

I wonder how true this is, particularly the repair bit:

BikeRadar wrote:

Finally, the Cosmic Carbone 40 is meant to be an easy wheel to live with – simple to maintain and repair, with strong component parts and tough construction

They don't look any less proprietary and difficult to repair (with normal tools) than Mavic's current crop of wheels. :?

meesterbond

Probably just because they've got external nipples. Unfortunately that 'review' looks rather a lot like a reworked press release rather than the results of any meaningful test.

Assuming you can get the parts, which is the same issue you face with many factory wheelsets, are Mavics actually any tougher to maintain / repair than other brands?

ugo.santalucia

meesterbond wrote:

Probably just because they've got external nipples. Unfortunately that 'review' looks rather a lot like a reworked press release rather than the results of any meaningful test.

Assuming you can get the parts, which is the same issue you face with many factory wheelsets, are Mavics actually any tougher to maintain / repair than other brands?

Rebuilding a Ksyrium/Aksium is not very easy... the results are often quite disappointing, if one expects even tensions/lateral offset/vertical offset all within the usual parameters, saying 0.2 mm lateral, 0.5 vertical and a tension distribution on the same side of around 10%.
You need someone with a lot of experience with these type of hubs/lacing

EKIMIKE

meesterbond wrote:

Probably just because they've got external nipples. Unfortunately that 'review' looks rather a lot like a reworked press release rather than the results of any meaningful test.

Assuming you can get the parts, which is the same issue you face with many factory wheelsets, are Mavics actually any tougher to maintain / repair than other brands?

Good job of reading and repeating the comments :twisted: Although it's true, BikeRadar/CyclingPlus reviews always read like a manufacturers' own marketing materials.

The problem lies in making the assumption that parts will be available and at a reasonable price. Also, whilst they now have external nipples they don't appear to be replaceable - especially with that foam core - but it's not especially clear. It makes sense for Mavic's profit margins but not much sense for people who want to own the wheels beyond the warranty period... Looks like they're going to retail for some serious dosh as well.

meesterbond

I actually read the 'review' this morning - didn't notice any comments :P

smidsy

mjbennett wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

But if they ask for advice, is it not our duty to remind them that 800 pounds for some carbon foil glue on top of a 400 pounds wheel set is a bit steep?

That's the nail hit firmly on the head!

Agreed. Yes it is, and most forum users are very very helpful

Finally we are getting somewhere.

That is all i have been pointing out.

This acknowledgement together with the video of the carbon fairing coming away from the rim should be an auto response to any future questions regarding Mavics Comic wheels (not a typo).

EKIMIKE

meesterbond wrote:

I actually read the 'review' this morning - didn't notice any comments :P

Haha! Nice. The more condemnation the better so far as these 'reviews' go. :evil:

dmclite-3.0

I have a fair few sets of wheels so I have a little bit of experience. The current fullcarbon clinchers I ride are from Fuerte Bici, 60mm all carbon. Google Fuerte Bici and have a look. I have been using mine for over 2 years now and they run true, are light and IMHO blingy without a massive price tag. They have no wear on the braking surface, so are actually outlasting my Kysirium SSC SL Se wheels in terms of rim longevity.