Fitting tubs - glue or tape?

jordan_217

In the next few months I'm hoping to have my first set of tubular wheels. For a first time user and fitter whats the best method of fitting, glue or tape?

From what I can see from trolling several forums and sites such as Park and Sheldon Brown, glue will give a more secure fitting (if done correctly) but can be messy and a bit of a black art for a novice whereas, tape seems more user freindly and it can potentially be easier to replace a taped rim over a glued rim at the side of the road(??). Is the Jantex tape any better than the Tufo stuff?

I suppose I'm more concerned with having a tub roll off the rim because I've not got a secure enough bond. Having to fix a flat is a fact of life and I'm sure if I fitted the tub initially then I can repeat the process mid ride without too much fuss. Sealant is an option of course....

Also, whats the relation to the wheels rim width and the tub width? E.g, if I went for a wheel with a 20mm rim what width tyre can I fit, 21-23mm or does it depend on the rim itself and the manufacturers recommendations? Or is it rider preference? (I prefer 23mm clinchers).

Any advice appreciated. I haven't even began to look at the tyres themselves yet, all seems a bit daunting but I'm willing to learn and give it a go.

ugo.santalucia

Glue is actually not that messy and tape can be a lot more time consuming than shown on you tube, especially Velox tape.
On balance glue is better and the time it takes to glue a tub is not huge
With a 20 mm tub rim you can fit all width, I use 23-27 on my Nemesis with no difference in bonding.

cycleclinic

I think you must be more praticed at gluing than me ugo! I use tape now as my first few attempts to a while and only 50% of the time did I manage no glue on the side walls. Tape takes minutes. It's the time it takes puting a layer of glue on leaving it to go tacky then another layer of the tub leaving that to go tacky .... unless there is a quicker way.

Glue should give lower rolling reistance which is why some die hards (nothing wrong with being a die hard traditionalist) swear by it. I use velox tub tape now for my tubs and for me he has less potential for mess and faff. The first time I had a puncture with a taped tub I had to use a tyre lever to start levering it of. I TT on taped tubs they have not rolled off.

Gluing is an art and I have had no one show the best way. If someone wold maybe I would use it. I do not do gluing tubs commercially, it's one bike thing I can't do well.

ugo.santalucia

I found tape is fine for England and I have used myself for a while, but last October during a trip to Italy I found that it is inadequate for long steep descents. Nothing dramatic, but as the rims got hot the tape became less effective and at the bottom of a 5 Km descent averaging 10-12% the front valve was bent, as a sign of the tyre slipping slightly on the rim. I readjusted it and it had not happened again, but in fairness I avoided very steep descents... once back in the UK I decided to go for glue instead

As for tape: the Tufo is very easy to install, as the cover is plastic, but the Velox has a paper cover, which keeps breaking as you remove it... in time you get better and it takes less and less time, but I remember the first time I did it it took me a good half an hour of battling. The Tufo costs like a small hatchback, so it is not a viable option for regular use. I keep a length of it in the saddle bag as emergency.
Yes, glue leaves minor residues on the side walls, it is inevitable and even PROs ride with some glue leftovers on the sidewalls, big deal...

jordan_217

Thanks for the responses on this, much appreciated. From what I can see both methods have their own positives and negatives and both (if done 'correctly') should work as expected. I've just been reading about the 'Belgian' method of fitting tubs, is this worth while or overkill for road use? It looks like something that CX racers do and TBH looks like adding extra layers of complexity to the process, particularly for a novice.

For taping - Tufo stuff is regarded as better, particularly for application as the waxed backing is thicker and doesn't tear when peeling off, from under the tub. However, both perform about the same once fitted and Jantex is cheaper. That sound right?

For gluing - Vittoria Mastik 1 is apparently the stuff to go for(?) Is a toothbrush ok to for applying glue on to the tub itself and then wear a rubber glove and apply glue to the rim with a fingertip (thin layer)?

There's a lot of You Tub vids and web articles giving instructions on both methods, is there one in particular which is good to follow?

Please keep the advice coming.

ugo.santalucia

jordan_217 wrote:

Thanks for the responses on this, much appreciated. From what I can see both methods have their own positives and negatives and both (if done 'correctly') should work as expected. I've just been reading about the 'Belgian' method of fitting tubs, is this worth while or overkill for road use? It looks like something that CX racers do and TBH looks like adding extra layers of complexity to the process, particularly for a novice.

For taping - Tufo stuff is regarded as better, particularly for application as the waxed backing is thicker and doesn't tear when peeling off, from under the tub. However, both perform about the same once fitted and Jantex is cheaper. That sound right?

For gluing - Vittoria Mastik 1 is apparently the stuff to go for(?) Is a toothbrush ok to for applying glue on to the tub itself and then wear a rubber glove and apply glue to the rim with a fingertip (thin layer)?

There's a lot of You Tub vids and web articles giving instructions on both methods, is there one in particular which is good to follow?

Please keep the advice coming.

I use a brush for both the rim ( two coats 15 minutes apart) and tyre (one coat only)... It works brilliantly and it is very easy.
Tape and glue seems a rather silly idea, unless you want the tape to stick to the rim, which makes changing a tyre easier... Normally it prefers to stick to the tyre

jordan_217

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

Thanks for the responses on this, much appreciated. From what I can see both methods have their own positives and negatives and both (if done 'correctly') should work as expected. I've just been reading about the 'Belgian' method of fitting tubs, is this worth while or overkill for road use? It looks like something that CX racers do and TBH looks like adding extra layers of complexity to the process, particularly for a novice.

For taping - Tufo stuff is regarded as better, particularly for application as the waxed backing is thicker and doesn't tear when peeling off, from under the tub. However, both perform about the same once fitted and Jantex is cheaper. That sound right?

For gluing - Vittoria Mastik 1 is apparently the stuff to go for(?) Is a toothbrush ok to for applying glue on to the tub itself and then wear a rubber glove and apply glue to the rim with a fingertip (thin layer)?

There's a lot of You Tub vids and web articles giving instructions on both methods, is there one in particular which is good to follow?

Please keep the advice coming.

I use a brush for both the rim ( two coats 15 minutes apart) and tyre (one coat only)... It works brilliantly and it is very easy.
Tape and glue seems a rather silly idea, unless you want the tape to stick to the rim, which makes changing a tyre easier... Normally it prefers to stick to the tyre

Thanks Paolo, is there a particular glue you use/prefer/recommend?

ugo.santalucia

jordan_217 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

Thanks for the responses on this, much appreciated. From what I can see both methods have their own positives and negatives and both (if done 'correctly') should work as expected. I've just been reading about the 'Belgian' method of fitting tubs, is this worth while or overkill for road use? It looks like something that CX racers do and TBH looks like adding extra layers of complexity to the process, particularly for a novice.

For taping - Tufo stuff is regarded as better, particularly for application as the waxed backing is thicker and doesn't tear when peeling off, from under the tub. However, both perform about the same once fitted and Jantex is cheaper. That sound right?

For gluing - Vittoria Mastik 1 is apparently the stuff to go for(?) Is a toothbrush ok to for applying glue on to the tub itself and then wear a rubber glove and apply glue to the rim with a fingertip (thin layer)?

There's a lot of You Tub vids and web articles giving instructions on both methods, is there one in particular which is good to follow?

Please keep the advice coming.

I use a brush for both the rim ( two coats 15 minutes apart) and tyre (one coat only)... It works brilliantly and it is very easy.
Tape and glue seems a rather silly idea, unless you want the tape to stick to the rim, which makes changing a tyre easier... Normally it prefers to stick to the tyre

Thanks Paolo, is there a particular glue you use/prefer/recommend?

I use Vittoria tyres, hence Vittoria glue, if I was using Conti, I would probably buy their glue if I didn't have any other... Evn if at the end of the day we are over complicating it, as it is only glue after all.

jordan_217

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

jordan_217 wrote:

Thanks for the responses on this, much appreciated. From what I can see both methods have their own positives and negatives and both (if done 'correctly') should work as expected. I've just been reading about the 'Belgian' method of fitting tubs, is this worth while or overkill for road use? It looks like something that CX racers do and TBH looks like adding extra layers of complexity to the process, particularly for a novice.

For taping - Tufo stuff is regarded as better, particularly for application as the waxed backing is thicker and doesn't tear when peeling off, from under the tub. However, both perform about the same once fitted and Jantex is cheaper. That sound right?

For gluing - Vittoria Mastik 1 is apparently the stuff to go for(?) Is a toothbrush ok to for applying glue on to the tub itself and then wear a rubber glove and apply glue to the rim with a fingertip (thin layer)?

There's a lot of You Tub vids and web articles giving instructions on both methods, is there one in particular which is good to follow?

Please keep the advice coming.

I use a brush for both the rim ( two coats 15 minutes apart) and tyre (one coat only)... It works brilliantly and it is very easy.
Tape and glue seems a rather silly idea, unless you want the tape to stick to the rim, which makes changing a tyre easier... Normally it prefers to stick to the tyre

Thanks Paolo, is there a particular glue you use/prefer/recommend?

I use Vittoria tyres, hence Vittoria glue, if I was using Conti, I would probably buy their glue if I didn't have any other... Evn if at the end of the day we are over complicating it, as it is only glue after all.

Makes sense. I'm looking at getting a set of Vittoria Corsa Evo CX's so will probs follow suit and go for the Vitorria Mastik glue.

sungod

glue for road, vittoria mastik 1

disposable acid/flux brushes are good for applying it, you can a bagfull for a few quid, check ebay/amazon

matching tyre to rim depends on the respective rim bed and tyre profiles, the rims/wheel maker should give recommended range, i'd avoid going too narrow, 23-25 will give a better ride

when i got my lovely tubs i spent ages reading up on tyre options, in summary...

general favourites seem to be veloflex and vittoria

i use veloflex carbons (old ones were 22mm, 2012 onwards are 23mm), they're pretty good, only downside is you need to scrape off the latex on the basetape before gluing, otherwise it stays on the rim when you remove the tyre, after two i need to strip the rim or it gets too much latex/glue built up

for wider there's the arenberg (25mm)

vittoria corsa evo cx had a reputation for poorer grip in the wet, but the compound is changing to their isogrip, which is supposed to be much better now

vittoria pave cg's seem well liked for poorer roads

there are the more exotic ones from fmb and dugast, reputed to be lovely

conti and tufo, tough, but ride like clinchers, fine cheap trainers or a light tufo as an emergency spare

btw when i was looking for decent pricing these were recommended to me...

http://www.velo-motion.com
http://www.bike-palast.com/en/Racebike/ ... ubulars/4/

...much cheaper than uk!

thegreatdivide

+1 for acid/flux brushes. Use one to apply a layer of glue then throw it away.

I broke my tub cherry over Xmas. Gluing and mounting sounded daunting but after one bout of ‘I don’t think I glued that on well enough’ paranoia it’s now a piece of pi$$. I’ve even learned how to clean a carbon rim back to its factory state.

FWIW – unlike Veloflex Carbons, if you use Corsa tubs you don’t have to scrape the back of the tyre.

jordan_217

@sungod - thanks for the info, very helpful. I was looking at either Conti (my usual preferred brand) and Vittoria offerings based on positive reviews on various sites. I did come across the Conti Giro which looks cheap enough to use as a spare 'get me home tyre'. Vittoria have a nice range at a few price points. I will need to research this wet weather grip problem with Corsa Evo's. I've found a few places selling them for ca. £30 but that's a false economy if they can't be trusted in the wet. (in the UK that's a must)

Will also add Veloflex as another brand to look at.

@thegreatdevide, thanks for the info and reassurance.

I think Glue is the way to go. I can always order a few rolls of tape in case it goes wrong and then if I don't use it, can keep it for roadside emergencies.

Shopping list:

1. Mastik One
2. Acid/flux brushes - 69p on Amazon.
3. Tyres - need to look into these.
4. Wheels - a minor detail (currently saving for some handbuilts but have been offered some 2nd hand/never used carbon tubs for a low price - it would be rude not to )

thegreatdivide

I’ve done thousands of miles on Open Corsas (same tread and same compound as their ‘closed’ partners) and I’ve never ever had a problem with grip in any weather condition - that's why it was a no brainer when I decided to go tubs. We were all caught out in a torrential downpour during last year’s Etape Caledonia and I never once felt in danger when flying off the back of Schiehallion. FWIW the Corsa is used by lots and lots of Pro teams. They wouldn’t put their lives at risk on an Alpine descent if the tyres were duff. It’s also proven to be one of the fastest rolling 23mm tyres you can buy.

racingcondor

+1 for Glue and Flux brushes. I'd also recommed watching a YouTube video or two on the subject and getting a box of latex gloves (first layer or two on the rim dob some glue on the rim and run a finger down the bed, gives you a thin, even layer very easily).

Like Jordan I've got a Conti Giro as my spare. For a get me home tyre £16 seemed to be too good a deal to pass up (and it looks very similar to my tan sidewall vittorias).

Monty Dog

FWIW Belgian method is only really needed for CX tubs where they are run at far lower pressure, and bigger side loads are placed on the tyre due to increased diameter. It's also better with wide section tubs on skinny rims as it helps give a stronger bond

cycleclinic

Given your responce go maybe my gluing is not that bad after all. I'll have to give it another go when I have to replace my tubs.

Yossie

Cable ties also work really well - just be sure to snip the excess down otherwise they make "motorbike" noise against the spokes. Obviously check the length of the tie against the rim depth of the wheel before fitting.

term1te

I've never used glue, but have used both the Jantex and Tufo tape. I've had no problems on flat/rolling roads, but in both cases the front tub has slightly rolled after long twisting descent. I've seen about 1 -2 mm movement, a bit more of the cloth tape is visible on one side. This has been with carbon wheels, and I guess it is the heat generated braking on the descent that softens the tape glue causing the tyre to roll slightly in the corners.

The Tufo tape left a horrible residue on the rim when I replace the tubs, the only way I could get it off was to gently heat it with a hot air paint stripper. I've got to reseat the tubs that are now held on with the Jantex tape, so will find out how easy that is soon.

For flat events or TTs I love the tubs, but I'm not so keen now to use them in the mountains.

cycleclinic

I think my main issue with gling has been trying to mount Conti gatorskin tubs and giro's (I thought I would pratice on cheap giro's) howver they hardly stretch even when left for days. I am sing Gator skin tubs as the road in suffolk are strewn with flints. Expenive veloflex tubs worry me as pnctures will get expensive.

jordan_217

Thanks for all the helpful responses on this. I've decided to give glue a go and am about to order some tubs (Conti Sprinters). I picked up my wheels on Tuesday night so I should be ready to give them a try soon.

Yossie

If you haven't ordered yet get some Tufo S3 lites instead - I've swapped from Contis to Tufo and enjoyed the lighter weight and cooler looks with no problem re punctures.

amaferanga

I've just fitted some Vittoria tubs to a set of new carbon rims using Jantex tape and I can push the tyres away from the rim relatively easily. I'm new to tube, but I guess that's definitely no good? Just how well should the Jantex tape stick to the rim? Should I have used a layer of glue on the rim? I cleaned the rims with white spirit before applying the tape so not sure what I can do to make it stick better.

sungod

i don't use tape, but that doesn't sound good

white spirit can leave an oily residue, after using it i do a final degrease with acetone or isopropyl alchohol on a clean paper towel

aside from that, if they were new rims there could've been some release agent on them, it's a hassle, but for safety i'd want to pull the tape off, clean the rims and remount

the advice i got for new cf rims was to use fine steel wool (0000 grade) to gently scour the rim bed to get any release agent off, then a final clean with acetone or ipa before gluing

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

I've just fitted some Vittoria tubs to a set of new carbon rims using Jantex tape and I can push the tyres away from the rim relatively easily. I'm new to tube, but I guess that's definitely no good? Just how well should the Jantex tape stick to the rim? Should I have used a layer of glue on the rim? I cleaned the rims with white spirit before applying the tape so not sure what I can do to make it stick better.

Can you push them when they are inflated? That is what matters...

amaferanga

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Can you push them when they are inflated? That is what matters...

Yep. Takes a fair bit of effort, but even inflated to 120psi I can push the tyre so it comes away from the rim.

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Can you push them when they are inflated? That is what matters...

Yep. Takes a fair bit of effort, but even inflated to 120psi I can push the tyre so it comes away from the rim.

It is probably fine, but if in doubt, then glue...

amaferanga

I think I'll get some glue at the weekend. I'd be sh!tting myself about the tub rolling off the rim if I used them as they are.

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

I think I'll get some glue at the weekend. I'd be sh!tting myself about the tub rolling off the rim if I used them as they are.

They won't, but feeling safe is important psychologically...

Monty Dog

Jantex tape is rubbish - it's a pain to fit and unless the tyre and rim profile match perfectly, it can get contaminated and result in the tub rolling off. If you want to use tape, the best is Tufo Extreme.

jordan_217

Yossie wrote:

If you haven't ordered yet get some Tufo S3 lites instead - I've swapped from Contis to Tufo and enjoyed the lighter weight and cooler looks with no problem re punctures.

Tufo's can't be repaired, can they? Just curious, for future reference. I've already ordered some Conti Sprinters from Ribble. It was a choice between the Sprinters or Corsa CX's and I went for Conti for no other reason than I prefer their clincher tyres so will stick with what I know (until I have more experience and/or need to buy some more).

Also when Tufo state 'only use Tufo tub tape' does that mean you can't use glue at all or do they only recommend fitting their own tubs with their own tape (which from what I've read, isn't just a marketing ploy as the tyres are tubs/tape are designed to be used together).

imposter2.0

jordan_217 wrote:

Tufo's can't be repaired, can they? Just curious, for future reference. I've already ordered some Conti Sprinters from Ribble. It was a choice between the Sprinters or Corsa CX's and I went for Conti for no other reason than I prefer their clincher tyres so will stick with what I know (until I have more experience and/or need to buy some more).

Sprinters do not really compare to Corsa CXs IMO. The closest comparison to the Vittoria is the Conti Competition - great tyres.

I've been using Conti Competitions stuck onto carbon rims with Jantex tape for the last three seasons now with no issue. You can push the tubs off the rim a bit at low pressure, but I've never had any issues with adhesion when inflated.