For Those Who Want Handbuilt Wheels - Heres Mine

pride4ever

ugo.santalucia wrote:

pride4ever wrote:

Personally I think they look boring and are a tad weighty for the price...just my opinion though.

Some weight is necessary, I rate spokes and angular bearings weight as necessary to support 100 Kg, some weight is not... for example I always wonder why we carry around 1.4 Kg of brain if we only use 10% of it apparently... in most cases lobotomy would be more beneficial than a low spoke count...

Lol..nice one.

drlodge

Just to throw in my experience, I went for Campag Record hubs (only available as 32H), Sapim spokes ("race" rear, "laser" front) and Ambrosio Excellight rims. If the hubs were avauilable as 28H I would have gone for this, but the weight saving would be minimal as then the heavier race spokes would have been used on the front rather than the light laser spokes. I'm 12 stone.

I wouldn't change a thing, these wheel really rock. And no, Ugo didn't build them for me, Harry Rowland did. I expect these wheel will last and last and the ride is super comfy and efficient.

Calpol

pride4ever wrote:

Personally I think they look boring and are a tad weighty for the price...just my opinion though.

I sort of agree. Call me shallow, "all the gear, no idea" or whatever else but I cannot get excited about these even though I know how pragmatic they will be. I thought they might be closer to 1500g for the set without skewer and tyres/tubes.

amaferanga

How much do those hubs weigh? The rims are apparently 470g each, spokes around 380g for 64, nipples around 1g each. So that's about 1380g without hubs. Are Shimano's top end hubs really ~500g for a pair? I know weight isn't everything but that's damn heavy for £300 hubs.

whosthedaddy

After reading so many reports on here that Handbuilts were the way to go I asked Ugo for advice
He advised the rims and suggested various hubs and it was my choice to go down the DA9000 route
I could have had a wheelset that was much cheaper if I'd wanted to, but I wanted to go this way.
I'm really please with them and a big thank you to Ugo for the wonderful service
The good thing is that if I ever upgrade my groupset to 11 speed, i wont have to change the wheels
For the record I'm 90+ kgs, hence the 32 Spokes, but on a mission to get that down to 80/85Kg
The Black Magic was given to me by my daughter and then I found out she had purchased them last year and were past there sell by date. (just like me, 57 and aging) The wheels will probably last longer than me!!!!!
Only took up this road cycling last year, but I've cycled to Barmouth (110 miles in a day) and managed to complete the Durham Etappe in October, so i'm not doing too bad.
The downside is the bloody cost, I did tell the wife what I paid for the wheels, but I haven't told her how much I'd paid for the Dogma frame that these wheels are going onto
The finished bike will be way too good for me, but eh who cares, I've earned it, the kids are grown up and now its my time to enjoy and that's what I plan to do.

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

How much do those hubs weigh? The rims are apparently 470g each, spokes around 380g for 64, nipples around 1g each. So that's about 1380g without hubs. Are Shimano's top end hubs really ~500g for a pair? I know weight isn't everything but that's damn heavy for £300 hubs.

Nope, 64 DT Comp of about 290 length with brass nipples in the real world are about 520 grams... Manufacturers like to quote the west of the shortest length they make, for obvious reasons. DA hubs are around 375 grams... You can buy hubs that are 280 per set, but they are normally junk...

whosthedaddy

amaferanga wrote:

How much do those hubs weigh? The rims are apparently 470g each, spokes around 380g for 64, nipples around 1g each. So that's about 1380g without hubs. Are Shimano's top end hubs really ~500g for a pair? I know weight isn't everything but that's damn heavy for £300 hubs.

Spokes, 64 times 8, around 500, hubs are 380, rims are 950... add rim tape...

ricky1980

all these talk of new wheels making me wanting to sell on my 2011 elite and get a new set...no i shall not do that!

verylonglegs

My handbuilts are still in the box awaiting their frame...only 6 more weeks to go. A mixture of frustration and anticipation :twisted:

amaferanga

ugo.santalucia wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

How much do those hubs weigh? The rims are apparently 470g each, spokes around 380g for 64, nipples around 1g each. So that's about 1380g without hubs. Are Shimano's top end hubs really ~500g for a pair? I know weight isn't everything but that's damn heavy for £300 hubs.

Nope, 64 DT Comp of about 290 length with brass nipples in the real world are about 520 grams... Manufacturers like to quote the west of the shortest length they make, for obvious reasons. DA hubs are around 375 grams... You can buy hubs that are 280 per set, but they are normally junk...

Fair enough. Lot of money for a heavy wheelset though.

And regarding the 'junk' hubs. I guess you're referring to the Bitex or similarly branded hubs? I've done many thousands of miles on mine and I certainly wouldn't describe them as junk. Quite happy with my Kinlin rims as well....

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

How much do those hubs weigh? The rims are apparently 470g each, spokes around 380g for 64, nipples around 1g each. So that's about 1380g without hubs. Are Shimano's top end hubs really ~500g for a pair? I know weight isn't everything but that's damn heavy for £300 hubs.

Nope, 64 DT Comp of about 290 length with brass nipples in the real world are about 520 grams... Manufacturers like to quote the west of the shortest length they make, for obvious reasons. DA hubs are around 375 grams... You can buy hubs that are 280 per set, but they are normally junk...

Fair enough. Lot of money for a heavy wheelset though.

And regarding the 'junk' hubs. I guess you're referring to the Bitex or similarly branded hubs? I've done many thousands of miles on mine and I certainly wouldn't describe them as junk. Quite happy with my Kinlin rims as well....

See, you are one case... I deal with bigger numbers... had 30 per cent of Bitex front hubs faulty. As for he Novatec light 482/291 none was faulty but half of them required new bearings within 6 months. It has been a wet year, but...

I have had no problems with Hope, no problems with Novatec 171/172 Ambrosio or Novatec CX, no problem with Shimano except one faulty front one. No problem with Campagnolo either. As you can see, only he light ones gave me grief

Gabbo

JGSI wrote:

I have just pulled the trigger on an order... using same Archetype rims but in 20/24 config ( humour me )
They'll take about 10 days to get the R45 hubs in and build...
Estimated weight of mine we calculated at 1460gm but weight was not top factor in my wish list anyways.
price is to me 100%vfm but is very much OH confidential,

To get to the stage of actually placing an order has taken over 6 months of musing... and saving.

Chris King hubs? What colour you getting them in? Be interesting to see pictures once they're built

silverpigeon

Why the same number of spokes on each wheel? Surely a rear wheels needs more spokes; is dished, carries more weight etc. Or is the front one just overbuilt?

smidsy

silverpigeon wrote:

Why the same number of spokes on each wheel? Surely a rear wheels needs more spokes; is dished, carries more weight etc. Or is the front one just overbuilt?

Why have less in the front when they are only about 8g each with nipples?

Even if you use 8 less in the front you would only save 64g, hardly earth shattering, and for what major benefit?

ugo.santalucia

silverpigeon wrote:

Why the same number of spokes on each wheel? Surely a rear wheels needs more spokes; is dished, carries more weight etc. Or is the front one just overbuilt?

The front is overbuilt for a number of reasons, mainly availability of components at the time. The difference would be 30 grams, less than a bowl of dry porridge oats. People are incredibly picky on forums.. The same people often rush for a reduced price deal on something totally inappropriate.

In Italy we say that "when talking of others' bottoms, we are all liberal and gay" or something like that... Is it relevant?

silverpigeon

I think you two need to re-read the question. I wasn't being picky and I wasn't suggesting the wheels, front or rear, were heavy. I was just curious as to why, when the rear wheel has to do more load bearing, it has the same number of spokes as the front.

ugo.santalucia

silverpigeon wrote:

I think you two need to re-read the question. I wasn't being picky and I wasn't suggesting the wheels, front or rear, were heavy. I was just curious as to why, when the rear wheel has to do more load bearing, it has the same number of spokes as the front.

Not addressing you specifically, more like the all lot of critics of something "expensive yet heavy"

Using the same number of spokes is not a new concept... plenty of 32/32 and 28/28 sets. Yes, the front always needs less, but there is not much to be saved in going down 4 spokes and going down 8 was a bit too much in the specific case. Then you have consider what is actually available. For a couple of months there were no Archetype 28 rims in the country and DA 9000 is a new set of hubs with rather patchy availability too.
Maybe one could have saved weight by going for lighter spokes at the front, but the availability of those in black is also patchy.
Besides, if "light" was not in the checklist, "reliable" becomes the priority.

The bicycle world seems to be the one where people are happy to pay more to get less. Ever wondered why an alloy crankset lighter than another should cost 3 times more? There is no reason...
Same applies to wheels... total weight is not the only important requirement... it is for some, as they can't see beyond it. These DA hubs cost 300 pounds but they last 10 times longer than a set of Taiwanese hubs that cost 80-90... so who is the winner there?
Of course I can build an equally performing set for half the price, but it won't be as reliable... it is a matter of what is important for the end user... not everybody is after shaving 5 seconds off his PB.

One could say that a custom made steel frame that weighs 1.7 Kg is a waste of money, when you can get a 900 grams frame from China for 1/3 of the price, but 10 years later who is the winner? Not everybody is after components designed by Gillette to be used 5 times and then ditched.

philbar72

Its all about the reliability for me. Mine are 28f/28R and could have been 24F/28R. I’d rather have something that is more reliable, and 32 grams or whatever extra on my front wheel is not going to kill me, if I’m climbing a 17% hill or if i'm sprinting, its just ridiculous... if it does make a difference I have yet to notice it, and one or 2 gulps of water from my Bidon will offset it!

If you are a weightweenie, or someone with an absolute need for getting the lightest possible then go for it, but I’d rather have something that is lighter, spins reliably, has good handling characteristics, is serviceable, and has good braking surfaces for when I’m being a big girls blouse on the descents!

jgsi

Gabbo wrote:

JGSI wrote:

I have just pulled the trigger on an order... using same Archetype rims but in 20/24 config ( humour me )
They'll take about 10 days to get the R45 hubs in and build...
Estimated weight of mine we calculated at 1460gm but weight was not top factor in my wish list anyways.
price is to me 100%vfm but is very much OH confidential,

To get to the stage of actually placing an order has taken over 6 months of musing... and saving.

Chris King hubs? What colour you getting them in? Be interesting to see pictures once they're built

In red - simply for the speed that colour gives
I have asked the guys to send me some pics of the build process when it gets going.

pheez

I just thought I would add that I got some wheels from Ugo. What I got for my money was a guy who knows his stuff and more than willing to answer my many many questions.

I know more about wheels than I ever thought I would.

Highly recommended and at the end of the day he will build what you want ( even sapim spokes ) if you provide it.

Gabbo

JGSI wrote:

Gabbo wrote:

JGSI wrote:

I have just pulled the trigger on an order... using same Archetype rims but in 20/24 config ( humour me )
They'll take about 10 days to get the R45 hubs in and build...
Estimated weight of mine we calculated at 1460gm but weight was not top factor in my wish list anyways.
price is to me 100%vfm but is very much OH confidential,

To get to the stage of actually placing an order has taken over 6 months of musing... and saving.

Chris King hubs? What colour you getting them in? Be interesting to see pictures once they're built

In red - simply for the speed that colour gives
I have asked the guys to send me some pics of the build process when it gets going.

Can I ask how much your wheels cost? If you don't mind me asking that is...

EDIT: Sorry, just seen :x

Gabbo

Question!

What are these spoke lacing patterns all about? I hear, the the radial spoke pattern in theory, add's more lateral stiffness (a word often overused) due to the spokes being shorter.

apreading

ugo.santalucia wrote:

apreading wrote:

Looking at disc rims for a cross bike that will really only go on road (maybe canal towpath at most). Have been thinking about Archetypes on DT 350 6 bolt hubs with 32 D-Light Sapim spokes. I weigh 13.5 stone. Want something as light as possible but stong and reliable rather than stupid light, MUST NOT be noisy freewheel (as I hate hope etc and prefer shimano silence on my mtb).

Does this sound a reasonable build? Dont really want to spend any more than that. Could go with XT hubs but they are heavier (and alot cheaper though). Sould I get away with less spokes, say 28 or even 24/28?

It is reasonable and 32 is good for disc brakes... the D-light are un-necessarily expensive though... ACI alpina DB are pretty much the same thing and 1/3 of the price. I have had those spokes on my disc wheels for 18 months now with no problem whatsoever... I routinely spec them when people don't want to spend more for Dt or Sapim... I think I have laced around 3,000 ACI spokes over the past 12 months and I have NOT had 1 reported failure yet

Now reconsidering - the DT350 hubs seem too loud to me (maybe not as bad as hope/CK but bad enough on the youtube vids) and American Classic 225s dont seem much better. XT are pretty heavy but have the silence I want but not the sealed cartridge bearings. Are there any other quieter options? Novatech or Miche?

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

apreading wrote:

Looking at disc rims for a cross bike that will really only go on road (maybe canal towpath at most). Have been thinking about Archetypes on DT 350 6 bolt hubs with 32 D-Light Sapim spokes. I weigh 13.5 stone. Want something as light as possible but stong and reliable rather than stupid light, MUST NOT be noisy freewheel (as I hate hope etc and prefer shimano silence on my mtb).

Does this sound a reasonable build? Dont really want to spend any more than that. Could go with XT hubs but they are heavier (and alot cheaper though). Sould I get away with less spokes, say 28 or even 24/28?

It is reasonable and 32 is good for disc brakes... the D-light are un-necessarily expensive though... ACI alpina DB are pretty much the same thing and 1/3 of the price. I have had those spokes on my disc wheels for 18 months now with no problem whatsoever... I routinely spec them when people don't want to spend more for Dt or Sapim... I think I have laced around 3,000 ACI spokes over the past 12 months and I have NOT had 1 reported failure yet

Now reconsidering - the DT350 hubs seem too loud to me (maybe not as bad as hope/CK but bad enough on the youtube vids) and American Classic 225s dont seem much better. XT are pretty heavy but have the silence I want but not the sealed cartridge bearings. Are there any other quieter options? Novatech or Miche?

I have never ran comparative acoustic tests... Novatec are probably the least noisy, but don't take my word for that

Monty Dog

Novatecs are certainly a lot quieter than Hope and Campagnolo for example - built some Novatec 711/712 hubs onto Stan's Crest rims with ACI d/b spokes for my rigid 29er a year ago, hard to beat for value. Crests weigh a good bit less than Archetypes if weight is the priority.

Frank the tank

Whosthedaddy wrote:

These have been recently built for me by Ugo
Dura Ace 9000 Hubs on Archetype Rims with DT Swiss Competition Spokes
32H Front and Rear
Weight Front 850grams, Rear 990 grams without skewers



Total cost including build and shipping approx £515
Just need to get the bike built up now

Nice wheels, do you always dress as a woman?

whosthedaddy

Frank the tank wrote:

Whosthedaddy wrote:

These have been recently built for me by Ugo
Dura Ace 9000 Hubs on Archetype Rims with DT Swiss Competition Spokes
32H Front and Rear
Weight Front 850grams, Rear 990 grams without skewers



Total cost including build and shipping approx £515
Just need to get the bike built up now

Nice wheels, do you always dress as a woman?

If only I was that skinny.......
and now I'm laid up with DVT in my left leg, so I can't even tell you what they ride like
Just praying that I get clearance to cycle again in the not too distant future

philbar72

hope you recover soon. use the wheels as a motivator for when you get recovered.

moscowflyer

Nice. Just dropped off my rims and hubs to Ugo this evening as it goes, really can't wait to see the finished product now and get riding on them.

ugo.santalucia

MoscowFlyer wrote:

Nice. Just dropped off my rims and hubs to Ugo this evening as it goes, really can't wait to see the finished product now and get riding on them.

I am on the case... They are really pretty... Black and blue...