Road racing and sportives.
Comments
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trickydisco wrote:Tom Butcher wrote:Getting married in April - stick a race on in September then
Seriously the amount of work involved isn't all that much and it's nearly all at the back end in the week and on the day of the race - prior to April all you'd have to do is fill a couple of forms out and send a cheque off with them.
You could even still stick a race on this September - plenty of time to organise it.
Have you ever organised a race? A couple of forms?
You need marshalls, You need to inform the police and get a permit, get the course inspected and approved, Risk assessment carried out. Get NEG riders, BC Commissionaires, handle registrations, payments. You need all the correct and approved BC signage around the course, Lead car and support vehicles registered with BC. Insurance etc
Yes Tricky, he has.0 -
trickydisco wrote:Tom Butcher wrote:Getting married in April - stick a race on in September then Seriously the amount of work involved isn't all that much and it's nearly all at the back end in the week and on the day of the race - prior to April all you'd have to do is fill a couple of forms out and send a cheque off with them.
You could even still stick a race on this September - plenty of time to organise it.
Have you ever organised a race? A couple of forms?
You need marshalls, You need to inform the police and get a permit, get the course inspected and approved, Risk assessment carried out. Get NEG riders, BC Commissionaires, handle registrations, payments. You need all the correct and approved BC signage around the course, Lead car and support vehicles registered with BC. Insurance etc
Yes I've organised a number of open road races thanks - when did you last organise one - from your post I'd guess not recently. Most of the work is back end - close to the race. So the marshalls, signage etc etc all falls into that category - it's work done in the week on or the day.
The registrations and payments are now done on line using the BC system - so much easier than it was - even if you've never done it before it is very easy to set up.
Lead cars etc same as marshalls - you just need a few BC members with cars willing to help on the day - the insurance you mention is a matter of putting a few details (name, registration number, BC membership no etc) on the form and letting BC have it.
Commissaires - either handled by the regional competitions sec or they'll give you a list and you just phone round and find a couple of willing to do it - not hard at all. The permit and police permission should be handled by the regional competitions secretary - so long as you use an existing course there should already be a risk assessment you can use - but I have risk assessed a new course and tbh it isn't rocket science.
In short read what I posted - it's mostly work done in the week of the race - there is relatively little that the organiser needs to do to months out.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:trickydisco wrote:Tom Butcher wrote:Getting married in April - stick a race on in September then Seriously the amount of work involved isn't all that much and it's nearly all at the back end in the week and on the day of the race - prior to April all you'd have to do is fill a couple of forms out and send a cheque off with them.
You could even still stick a race on this September - plenty of time to organise it.
Have you ever organised a race? A couple of forms?
You need marshalls, You need to inform the police and get a permit, get the course inspected and approved, Risk assessment carried out. Get NEG riders, BC Commissionaires, handle registrations, payments. You need all the correct and approved BC signage around the course, Lead car and support vehicles registered with BC. Insurance etc
Yes I've organised a number of open road races thanks - when did you last organise one - from your post I'd guess not recently. Most of the work is back end - close to the race. So the marshalls, signage etc etc all falls into that category - it's work done in the week on or the day.
The registrations and payments are now done on line using the BC system - so much easier than it was - even if you've never done it before it is very easy to set up.
Lead cars etc same as marshalls - you just need a few BC members with cars willing to help on the day - the insurance you mention is a matter of putting a few details (name, registration number, BC membership no etc) on the form and letting BC have it.
Commissaires - either handled by the regional competitions sec or they'll give you a list and you just phone round and find a couple of willing to do it - not hard at all. The permit and police permission should be handled by the regional competitions secretary - so long as you use an existing course there should already be a risk assessment you can use - but I have risk assessed a new course and tbh it isn't rocket science.
In short read what I posted - it's mostly work done in the week of the race - there is relatively little that the organiser needs to do to months out.
Whoa.. put your handbag down. As you've alluded to it's not as simple as 'filling out a load of forms' and you have a road race. I'm actually on the committee of a cycling club that organises a road race every year. A lot of work goes into this every year so it can run smoothly with various people involved. I know there was more work when we first introduced it as the course had to be approved.0 -
Who are the peope that actually organise sportives are they cyclists, clubs/club members/officials, who are they out of interest ?
I find it hard to knock Sportives too much, but I would ask why do people suddenly decide to either start doing them or train for the odd one or two per year therefore why weren't they doing 70ish mile rides before sportives happended along ?Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young0 -
trickydisco wrote:Whoa.. put your handbag down. As you've alluded to it's not as simple as 'filling out a load of forms' and you have a road race. I'm actually on the committee of a cycling club that organises a road race every year.
Classic - so you don't even organise them yourself ! If I know someone that worked on the Olympics can I claim credit for that ?
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:Classic - so you don't even organise them yourself ! If I know someone that worked on the Olympics can I claim credit for that ?
you really sound like a first class toolbag. What are you blithering on about? I'm saying I know what's involved in organising a road race because I help organise them. It's not a 1 man job. A clubs committee is to help with organising such events. Do you want a gold star for organising one yourself?
Does it make other races inferior if they've had to use many people to organise it? i think not..
The issue I was raising is it isn't just a case of sending off some forms.0 -
Team4Luke wrote:Who are the peope that actually organise sportives are they cyclists, clubs/club members/officials, who are they out of interest ?
All of the above, plus charities, national organisations and an increasing number of private ventures, who run them for profit.0 -
Imposter wrote:Team4Luke wrote:Who are the peope that actually organise sportives are they cyclists, clubs/club members/officials, who are they out of interest ?
All of the above, plus charities, national organisations and an increasing number of private ventures, who run them for profit.
Nail on head I think.
Most are generally good for cycling as it gets people out riding and generating income either through entry fees or through purchasing new kit, accommodation blah, blah, blah.
However there are a lot of organisers who seem to try to do both - remember the case of the charity sportive that wasn't generating any cash for the charity it was named for? http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... -bike-ride
I'm not knocking Sportives before I get a bashing & not using the above as a single example to hold against all organisers of them either.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
Team4Luke wrote:Who are the peope that actually organise sportives are they cyclists, clubs/club members/officials, who are they out of interest ?
I find it hard to knock Sportives too much, but I would ask why do people suddenly decide to either start doing them or train for the odd one or two per year therefore why weren't they doing 70ish mile rides before sportives happended along ?
Sportives can be organised (to whatever standard the organiser chooses!) by pretty well anyone. Some have a lot of hard work put into them, and some give some proceeds to charity. Some are entirely profit making. I know of one club who engaged with a promoter, only to find all the proceeds that were to go to them (and then to a charity) had been "swallowed up" by the promoter's fees. The key thing is, there are no controls, although British Cycling does have an "approval" scheme. Some sportives make good money for excellent charities, but there are cases where very, very little ends up with a featured charity. In other words, currently it's a free for all, and events need no police or other permissions as they don't come under the Cycle Racing legislation (i.e. they are not (or should not) be races or trials by time). There were several cases last year where BC road races were cancelled as police permission was withdrawn because there was a sportive on the same roads - which the police couldn't do anything about.
Road races have to be organised by a BC member (or TLI or LVRC if promoted under their rules). There are specific fees and rules to follow, including police permissions. Generally clubs put on events, because there is a need for free, willing and often trained helpers. There needs to be a healthy club scene for road races and time trials to happen. A promoter, in general, cannot make money out of a race - accounts have to be submitted and checked. (Obviously, races like the Tour of Britain are promoted by commercial specialist companies and so are a bit different).
I appreciate that many of, in particular, the newer people into cycling, will be attrcated by sportives. They are easy to access, and there is no need to "put anything back" like there is when a club organises races. This may especially appeal to time challenged people who want to ride, not stand on a cold corner for hours.
However, without clubs, and without club members, there wouldn't be any racing, and therefore no GB Olympic riders and no medals. Sportives don't provide any route into the competitive sport. I well remember a rather gangly lad impressing in a Schoolboy circuit race in Bungay - his name - Bradley Wiggins. Without all the organisers in all the clubs he wouldn't have even been able to turn pro, let alone win the Tour.0 -
trickydisco wrote:Tom Butcher wrote:Classic - so you don't even organise them yourself ! If I know someone that worked on the Olympics can I claim credit for that ?
you really sound like a first class toolbag. What are you blithering on about? I'm saying I know what's involved in organising a road race because I help organise them. It's not a 1 man job. A clubs committee is to help with organising such events. Do you want a gold star for organising one yourself?
Does it make other races inferior if they've had to use many people to organise it? i think not..
The issue I was raising is it isn't just a case of sending off some forms.
It is, I'm doing 2 races within 8 weeks of each other and handling all the organisation myself (other than the excellent assistance of the Welsh Cycling events organiser). Tom didn't say it was just a case of filling in the forms - he said that was all that was required well in advance of the race which you seem to have misread. I spent an hour with the Welsh Cycling people setting up my events online and about half an hour booking HQ venues. I am having to do a full risk assessment for the one course as there are no previous ones on the system but that is the only real job up until a few weeks before when I'll have to start wielding the stick to get lead car drivers and a few other volunteers (the club members are already aware of the dates but trying to get people to commit too early is a waste of time). Other than that it is simply a case of dealing with a few online entries each day and a hell of a lot of work on the day / day before.0 -
Interesting points raised.
I've been racing for nearly 20 years, former Elite now hold a 1st cat licence. I live in the North West where we have an excellent league of road races on great courses, well organised, good value, safe etc
Couple of seasons ago me and my mates wouldn't be seen dead riding a sportive, used to call the people who did them and generally took the piss out of anything to do with them. However, the CDNW league has become a victim of it's own success and this year we're eating our words and riding the Fred and possibly a few more.
Personally my reasons for paying £40 to enter the Fred Whitton and the like are..
- large gaps in the calendar - 1 race in April, 1 race in May, 2 races in June
- little incentive for 1st or 2nd cats - racing against some of the best Elites in the UK almost every race (races are split E/1/2 and 3/4).
There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that we'll treat the Fred like a race.0 -
What I don't really get about this thread, is why it's even an issue.tommybat wrote:There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that we'll treat the Fred like a race.
Forgive a complete noob (and quite possibly naive) perspective, but the only reason I would care if people treated a sportive like a race is if the racers' behaviour was somehow bad (RLJing, carving people up, causing noobs like me to crash etc) and/or thereby got the sportives a bad name and resulted in the sportives not getting permission (whatever that may or may not mean) to be put on the next time.
In reality, the racers are so much faster than me (and most other sportive riders?) that I won't even see them in all probability.Is the gorilla tired yet?0 -
Pross wrote:It is, I'm doing 2 races within 8 weeks of each other and handling all the organisation myself (other than the excellent assistance of the Welsh Cycling events organiser). Tom didn't say it was just a case of filling in the forms - he said that was all that was required well in advance of the race which you seem to have misread. I spent an hour with the Welsh Cycling people setting up my events online and about half an hour booking HQ venues. I am having to do a full risk assessment for the one course as there are no previous ones on the system but that is the only real job up until a few weeks before when I'll have to start wielding the stick to get lead car drivers and a few other volunteers (the club members are already aware of the dates but trying to get people to commit too early is a waste of time). Other than that it is simply a case of dealing with a few online entries each day and a hell of a lot of work on the day / day before.
Exactly - I think for most races the organiser does 90% of it on their own (other than stuff the region do) pretty much until the day of the event.
I wouldn't want to downplay the work involved - but it is mainly close to the event - anyone wanting to put on a race this Autumn still has time to do it even if they've done nothing so far. From memory there are a few forms to fill in, you'd have to book an HQ, maybe risk assess the course if that hasn't been done before and inform the county council highways dept so they don' t plan roadworks for the day - oh and set up the entry system with BC - I've probably forgotten something but it's mostly just phoning people or paperwork at the early stage. OK so more than a couple of forms but it's really not a huge amount to get the race in the calendar - the hard effort comes later on. The day of the race you are probably there 6.30 to set the course up and if they race til 1ish you aren't home til gone 4pm.
I can't speak for all regions but certainly in the East Mids there is a decent amount of support from the region now - from what you say Pross sounds the same in Wales.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
ChrisAOnABike wrote:
What I don't really get about this thread, is why it's even an issue.tommybat wrote:There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that we'll treat the Fred like a race.
Forgive a complete noob (and quite possibly naive) perspective, but the only reason I would care if people treated a sportive like a race is if the racers' behaviour was somehow bad (RLJing, carving people up, causing noobs like me to crash etc) and/or thereby got the sportives a bad name and resulted in the sportives not getting permission (whatever that may or may not mean) to be put on the next time.
In reality, the racers are so much faster than me (and most other sportive riders?) that I won't even see them in all probability.
Problem is a legal one, re the Racing on the highways act, and also liability insurance if an accident were to occur under those sort of circumstances.0 -
I wonder if there are athletics forums out there where club runners moan about the "Nike 10K" brigade?
To me it's basically the same principle; I used to really enjoy doing 10K 'races' around Regent's Park etc but I would never have dreamed of turning up at an athletics track and taking my chances.
Although that's not been the case with cycling (I have made the leap from sportives to road racing) I can totally understand why a lot of riders wouldn't make that switch - racing is madly tough and massively more dangerous than pootling around the Dragon Ride or whatever. I've quit racing at least twice and, frankly, it still scares the shi'ite out of me...
To my mind, both 'codes' can coexist perfectly happily and the sportive world will feed a steady flow of riders into the racing world, although as someone else has pointed out getting the numbers is hardly an issue these days - my club's two road races sold out quicker than a Justin Bieber concert!!My cycle racing blog: http://cyclingapprentice.wordpress.com/
If you live in or near Sussex, check this out:
http://ontherivet.ning.com/0 -
Dess1e wrote:Problem is a legal one, re the Racing on the highways act, and also liability insurance if an accident were to occur under those sort of circumstances.
Sportive Organisers will have public liability cover, but I would question whether all entrants hold third party, do sportive organisers insist on this, ask for proof ? I don't ride them and not that interested, I don't want some inexperienced rider knocking me off and they don't have cover I can claim against.
An accident in a RR would be deemed as racing on the highway, but in a sportive would have to be determined likely by a judge that the riders were racing inappropriately on the highway.Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young0 -
Team4Luke wrote:Dess1e wrote:Problem is a legal one, re the Racing on the highways act, and also liability insurance if an accident were to occur under those sort of circumstances.
Sportive Organisers will have public liability cover, but I would question whether all entrants hold third party, do sportive organisers insist on this, ask for proof ? I don't ride them and not that interested, I don't want some inexperienced rider knocking me off and they don't have cover I can claim against.
An accident in a RR would be deemed as racing on the highway, but in a sportive would have to be determined likely by a judge that the riders were racing inappropriately on the highway.
There is no "legal problem" - a sportive is nothing more than 1000s of individual riders on the road at the same time, any "racing" is no more than your club run sprinting for the cafe , a chaingang or beating a Strava segment? and cycling on the highway does not require any insurance cover and i know of no sportive organiser who advertises their event as a race, in the uk.
the term racing is relative, my training ride is someone elses racing or vice versa.
If you r that worried about being able to claim off someone, perhaps cycling is nt for you?
In a RR who would you claim off ? and if by some chance you were successful, what would that do for the rest of us????0 -
regardless of an RR, Sportive, if your hit by another you should rightly be able to claim for your damages to equipment and yourself. Try applying what you said to driving. In any RR or TT you must hold or the organising body must hold for you third party cover, anyone in these events are duly covered. In a large mass event like a sportive which has no governance and the chances are much higher that accidents will occur with the numbers and possible inexperience, then I question whether it should be compulsory for all entrants in a sportive to hold third party liability cover, many will already undoubted, but there will be equally many that do not.
Riders have claimed against each other in RR (and in club rides !), down to the individual, if it was an accident then maybe fair enough but say it was stupid riding then you may make the decision to claim against them, BC won't act for both parties though.Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young0 -
So if you are out riding a sportive and all the riders have their 3rd party insurance but you get knocked off by someone who is just out riding their bike on public roads who do you sue then? The lack of insurance doesn't stop you being able to try to sue someone if you think their behaviour was negligent and caused you damage - if you win damages they will have to find some other way to pay either by house insurance or out of the salary. I suspect the entry rules in a sportive state that there are risks involved and that by agreeing to their terms you accept such situations may arise. Racing is different as you have a lead car and following cars that denote the limits of the race and anything occurring within that space. The BC insurance is more to cover any damage to people not involved in the race.
Cycling is a moderately risky thing to do whether that's just a leisure ride or racing so probably best for all that if you are one of those people who likes to find someone to blame for any accident you choose another sport. If I enter a sportive I know that there is a chance that the standard of riding by some won't be up to the sort of standard I would like and so I wouldn't ride in a group with anyone I didn't trust and would give them a wide berth if passing them.0 -
Team4Luke wrote:regardless of an RR, Sportive, if your hit by another you should rightly be able to claim for your damages to equipment and yourself. Try applying what you said to driving. In any RR or TT you must hold or the organising body must hold for you third party cover, anyone in these events are duly covered. In a large mass event like a sportive which has no governance and the chances are much higher that accidents will occur with the numbers and possible inexperience, then I question whether it should be compulsory for all entrants in a sportive to hold third party liability cover, many will already undoubted, but there will be equally many that do not.
Riders have claimed against each other in RR (and in club rides !), down to the individual, if it was an accident then maybe fair enough but say it was stupid riding then you may make the decision to claim against them, BC won't act for both parties though.
Unlike driving, the law doesnt require you have insurance to cycle on the road, no matter what discipline, thats the end of it.
If you wish to change that, then write to your MP, BC and CTT
Have you fully comp insurance for ANY activity whilst cycling?
You are getting confused with civil cases.0 -
You can't use your BC insurance to claim against another BC member in a race.
Sportives / Fun rides should have event insurance but this will only cover the organisers. If someone crashed me in one of those events, I would expect them to pay for the damage.
Club runs don't have cover but 3rd party insurance is generally insisted upon by clubs.
At the end of the day, if you ride like a moron, you will likely have an accident and there will be consequences. Either just yourself will be injured or someone else will and you will be liable.0 -
Rodrego Hernandez wrote:You can't use your BC insurance to claim against another BC member in a race.
Sportives / Fun rides should have event insurance but this will only cover the organisers. If someone crashed me in one of those events, I would expect them to pay for the damage.
Club runs don't have cover but 3rd party insurance is generally insisted upon by clubs.
At the end of the day, if you ride like a moron, you will likely have an accident and there will be consequences. Either just yourself will be injured or someone else will and you will be liable.
Isn't BC insurance 3rd party liability insurance? e.g. if you cause damage to a third party and they claim against you, the insurance will indemnify you against that claim (subject to policy terms). When you mention using insurance "to claim", are you referring to the legal support that comes with BC? This is basically just a referral to a friendly solicitor as far as I can see and isn't really that much of a benefit at all. Obviously the same lawyer wouldn't both pursue and defend the same claim.
I've been taken out in a race, completely the other guy's fault and caused a fair amount of damage - just put it down to experience.0 -
I don't think many clubs insist members have 3rd party cover to join rides - well if they do we are the exception. I think clubs may also have some kind of 3rd party cover for things like club runs too if they are affiliated to BC - I get the letter from them but I didn't read all the small print - obviously this is cover for the club in case someone decides they are to blame for a rider on the club run causing an accident - not individual members.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
BigMat wrote:Rodrego Hernandez wrote:You can't use your BC insurance to claim against another BC member in a race.
Sportives / Fun rides should have event insurance but this will only cover the organisers. If someone crashed me in one of those events, I would expect them to pay for the damage.
Club runs don't have cover but 3rd party insurance is generally insisted upon by clubs.
At the end of the day, if you ride like a moron, you will likely have an accident and there will be consequences. Either just yourself will be injured or someone else will and you will be liable.
Isn't BC insurance 3rd party liability insurance? e.g. if you cause damage to a third party and they claim against you, the insurance will indemnify you against that claim (subject to policy terms). When you mention using insurance "to claim", are you referring to the legal support that comes with BC? This is basically just a referral to a friendly solicitor as far as I can see and isn't really that much of a benefit at all. Obviously the same lawyer wouldn't both pursue and defend the same claim.
I've been taken out in a race, completely the other guy's fault and caused a fair amount of damage - just put it down to experience.
It is 3rd party but you can't claim against other competitors in a race, I guess the terms and conditions cover all of this.
I've been taken out in races too in the same way and yes it is always put down to experience but to be honest, the standard of riding has got so poor these days and race officials seem so bad at policing this that there will be problems in the future with racers claiming against each other. There is nothing against taking out another insurance policy and using that. I don't think there is anyway.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:I don't think many clubs insist members have 3rd party cover to join rides - well if they do we are the exception. I think clubs may also have some kind of 3rd party cover for things like club runs too if they are affiliated to BC
Only officials of the club, so not the rest of the membership.
There are a number of clubs I know of - Dulwich Paragon being the biggest I'm sure - which require membership of BC for all members which means they will have 3rd party cover.Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/0 -
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/member ... -For-Clubs
Pretty certain that is the wording on the letter they send out to club secretaries - not certain as I don't know where the letter is off hand. It's more insurance for claims against the club as an entity or people acting in an official capacity.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
I think you will find that, in an RR, you'd need to be able to prove negligence. Between participants in a Sportive normal road rules presumably apply. But it might get interesting if it came to court.regardless of an RR, Sportive, if your hit by another you should rightly be able to claim for your damages to equipment and yourself.
Paul0 -
paul2718 wrote:
I think you will find that, in an RR, you'd need to be able to prove negligence. Between participants in a Sportive normal road rules presumably apply. But it might get interesting if it came to court.regardless of an RR, Sportive, if your hit by another you should rightly be able to claim for your damages to equipment and yourself.
Paul
Common sense should prevail. I have insurance for my bike in races. If you race and don't expect to crash you're an idiot.0 -
Pross wrote:So if you are out riding a sportive and all the riders have their 3rd party insurance but you get knocked off by someone who is just out riding their bike on public roads who do you sue then? The lack of insurance doesn't stop you being able to try to sue someone if you think their behaviour was negligent and caused you damage - if you win damages they will have to find some other way to pay either by house insurance or out of the salary. I suspect the entry rules in a sportive state that there are risks involved and that by agreeing to their terms you accept such situations may arise. Racing is different as you have a lead car and following cars that denote the limits of the race and anything occurring within that space. The BC insurance is more to cover any damage to people not involved in the race.
Cycling is a moderately risky thing to do whether that's just a leisure ride or racing so probably best for all that if you are one of those people who likes to find someone to blame for any accident you choose another sport. If I enter a sportive I know that there is a chance that the standard of riding by some won't be up to the sort of standard I would like and so I wouldn't ride in a group with anyone I didn't trust and would give them a wide berth if passing them.
The point I am making is that a sportive is a mass participant organised event and whilst the organisers are coverered then so should all the riders, I'm not in the blame game at all, but I would want damages to my bike paid for in the first instance and then for me if I am duly hurt or unable work. Should any other cyclist injure me then normal civil case would be made just as you would now on any ride. Further other none insured riders could cause an accident to another rider or to private property, parked car etc, that subsequently a claim against you would be made when the liability is with the person who caused such, they could just ride off on their merry way shouting I'm not covered tough, sue the organiser ! Where would we all be if we all decided not to be insured - why bother being a GOLD member of BC then. Organisers liability cover I would not want to rely on, would be difficult to prove they would be directly liable for accidents by riders, but not impossible, hitting a car and riding off, possibly.
Be responsible, Be Insured.Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young0 -
mamba80 wrote:Unlike driving, the law doesnt require you have insurance to cycle on the road, no matter what discipline, thats the end of it.
If you wish to change that, then write to your MP, BC and CTT
Have you fully comp insurance for ANY activity whilst cycling?
You are getting confused with civil cases.
yes fine but you would be down right irresponsible not have cover, remember being covered is a duty to those you may accidently hurt or damage their property.
Almost, yes, I am GOLD BC so have full third party cover and the included personal accident cover.Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young0
