Groups and passing lone riders - rant
diy
Posts: 6,473
I was out Saturday and Sunday, on some fairly popular road circuits and I have to say I got pretty frustrated with the local club teams in the way they pass lone riders. Not only do they pass you and push you to the back of their group through rotation (overtake, pull in, slow down), but they give you mm of space when doing so.
What is the advantage of passing another rider so close? Or is it simply group/pack mentality of not actually paying attention to what is coming up ahead. On one lap I had to pass a group 3 times, only for their leaders to sprint ahead and push me to the back by pulling in front and slowing down. Is there some sort of ego denting which occurs by a lone rider pulling ahead of your group?
The club in question is a big London club and I have seen excellent group riding etiquette from other members of their club, so I'm not attacking the club, just people who think lone riders are some sort of target to be swallowed and spat out the back.
So a polite request to those who ride in groups - Not everyone wants to ride dangerously close to others, so please a bit of consideration when you pass other cyclists and also a bit of respect for those who want to pass you, when your group slows down.
What is the advantage of passing another rider so close? Or is it simply group/pack mentality of not actually paying attention to what is coming up ahead. On one lap I had to pass a group 3 times, only for their leaders to sprint ahead and push me to the back by pulling in front and slowing down. Is there some sort of ego denting which occurs by a lone rider pulling ahead of your group?
The club in question is a big London club and I have seen excellent group riding etiquette from other members of their club, so I'm not attacking the club, just people who think lone riders are some sort of target to be swallowed and spat out the back.
So a polite request to those who ride in groups - Not everyone wants to ride dangerously close to others, so please a bit of consideration when you pass other cyclists and also a bit of respect for those who want to pass you, when your group slows down.
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diy wrote:I was out Saturday and Sunday, on some fairly popular road circuits and I have to say I got pretty frustrated with the local club teams in the way they pass lone riders. Not only do they pass you and push you to the back of their group through rotation (overtake, pull in, slow down), but they give you mm of space when doing so.
What is the advantage of passing another rider so close? Or is it simply group/pack mentality of not actually paying attention to what is coming up ahead. On one lap I had to pass a group 3 times, only for their leaders to sprint ahead and push me to the back by pulling in front and slowing down. Is there some sort of ego denting which occurs by a lone rider pulling ahead of your group?
The club in question is a big London club and I have seen excellent group riding etiquette from other members of their club, so I'm not attacking the club, just people who think lone riders are some sort of target to be swallowed and spat out the back.
So a polite request to those who ride in groups - Not everyone wants to ride dangerously close to others, so please a bit of consideration when you pass other cyclists and also a bit of respect for those who want to pass you, when your group slows down.
Yeah sounds annoying to be fair and not something I have experienced myself but if that happened I would squirt my water bottle at him lol0 -
LOL - never thought of that.
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It's down to the lead riders. Everyone else will imitate what they do. If the leaders are setting a bad example and you feel are endangered by their actions, then go ahead and shoot the club an email.0
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diy wrote:The club in question is a big London club
Dynamo ?0 -
I had a quick look at their website and it looks like their Saturday park ride is open to new comers, so probably harder for them to ride to a standard and frustrating for those who are faster in their group being unable to keep the pace up. As said before I have seen excellent etiquette from other people in this club. However, generally saturday's are their worse days for riding standards.
I might ping them a polite email asking them to remind riders to give plenty of space when passing and to ease off the rotation when non group riders get sucked in and perhaps be aware that when they have a slower group of people, others will want to pass them or re-pass them.0 -
Re the close passing - "suffered" with that in sportives - I don't quite understand why cyclists demand full space from vehicles and then pass their slower fellow cyclists with mm of room. Do they not realise that the slower cyclist is often less experience, may not ride a straight line and ultimately may jump at the surprise of someone passing so close - it could take out both riders.
I do like the water bottle idea - I may take one for the next sportive to be used when someone passes SWMBO dangerously close. 0 -
I think riding alongside the offender and asking him not to ride like a f****** c*** would be my plan.0
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They are a bunch on cnuts in Richmond Park on Saturday mornings. I am a confident rider in groups and spend many hours in groups at all times of night and day, but they scare the hell out of me with their close passes. Totally unnecessary and for the many novice riders out in the park it must be even more un-nerving.
They are easy to pick on because they are so numerous. But they do the sport of cycling no favours whatsoever by riding so inconsiderately.0 -
hmm.. I read that other link, so this thread is probably old news. I'm pretty sure the 20mph limit cannot be enforced against cyclists and I'd question if the original 30 limit can still be enforced either without valid signage.
EDIT - just looked in to it about 70% sure - there is no enforceable limit for cyclists, since the 1997 act had the limit at 30, but the 2010 act modified the definition of vehicle to exclude cycles. Bit of a home goal for the authorities there and a bit naughty of the met to suggest otherwise on their posters.0 -
My experience is that if you are riding up Bloomfield on a Saturday morning you will have Dynamo riders coming down fast on the wrong side of the road, and they will expect you to move out of their way.
Another thing I don't understand is why some clubs need to block the whole road when they stop. I was going up Staple lane recently, and a club had stopped and spread out by the junction, stopping anybody from getting past. If I found that annoying I imagine car drivers would have a much worse view....0 -
a few weeks ago i went on one of their chaingangs, to see it fro the other side of the fence... the majority of them were pretty ok riders and fairly courteous, and knowledgeable, the feeling was welcoming and they were pretty patient with me..... being not particularly fast or used to group riding....
I think their fast boys probably get a bad rep because they are so quick and in my experience, pretty impatient, especially early on saturday morning. i'm pretty sure they are perfectly nice people!0 -
diy wrote:hmm.. I read that other link, so this thread is probably old news.
I wouldn't say it's old news - but it certainly seems to suggest that nothing much has changed in the last couple of years.. 0 -
Many cyclists I speak to from London way have a poor opinion of LD. I've only had a bit of experience of them turning up at races with the 'billy big rollocks' look on their face and getting fired out the back in minutes 0
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SheffSimon wrote:I think riding alongside the offender and asking him not to ride like a f****** c*** would be my plan.
Coffee + explosion = wet laptop
Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
diy wrote:yes its dynamo - I had a quick look at their website and it looks like their Saturday park ride is open to new comers, so probably harder for them to ride to a standard and frustrating for those who are faster in their group being unable to keep the pace up. As said before I have seen excellent etiquette from other people in this club. However, generally saturday's are there worse days for riding standards.
I might ping them a polite email asking them to remind riders to give plenty of space when passing and to ease off the rotation when non group riders get sucked in and perhaps be aware that when they have a slower group of people, others will want to pass them or re-pass them.
Are we allowed to name offenders then? I am currently displeased with a certain club who ride in areas West of Edinburgh, but am loath to name them in public 'cos I'm allergic to being sued.
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Kerguelen wrote:diy wrote:yes its dynamo - I had a quick look at their website and it looks like their Saturday park ride is open to new comers, so probably harder for them to ride to a standard and frustrating for those who are faster in their group being unable to keep the pace up. As said before I have seen excellent etiquette from other people in this club. However, generally saturday's are there worse days for riding standards.
I might ping them a polite email asking them to remind riders to give plenty of space when passing and to ease off the rotation when non group riders get sucked in and perhaps be aware that when they have a slower group of people, others will want to pass them or re-pass them.
Are we allowed to name offenders then? I am currently displeased with a certain club who ride in areas West of Edinburgh, but am loath to name them in public 'cos I'm allergic to being sued.
Its a free world & your on an internet forum. Think the OP has not done or said anything derogatory towards the club itself & has shown that he was not initially willing to name the club and even when he did it was a polite well worded argument as to why he was not too happy with them. As opposed to having a full on rant about them being (inset your own choice of words you wish to use).
You never know another member of the club may well have seen this on BR and raise it themselves with the club?
I know this has happened on my club runs before & it can be hard if your not the designated ride leader to assert your authority that the ride leader is being a Twunt but I certainly have had that conversation but out of courtesy to the rider in question in private and pointed out that we are their to look after and encourage good riding and behaviour to new members.Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.0 -
diy wrote:hmm.. I read that other link, so this thread is probably old news. I'm pretty sure the 20mph limit cannot be enforced against cyclists and I'd question if the original 30 limit can still be enforced either without valid signage.
EDIT - just looked in to it about 70% sure - there is no enforceable limit for cyclists, since the 1997 act had the limit at 30, but the 2010 act modified the definition of vehicle to exclude cycles. Bit of a home goal for the authorities there and a bit naughty of the met to suggest otherwise on their posters.
Richmond Park is covered by separate speed rules than public roads and as such cyclists are supposed to adhere to the speed limits in the park, otherwise as you say on public roads that would be the case.0 -
No-one can sue you successfully as long as it's true. Be polite and stick to the facts and you can be as negative as you like.Kerguelen wrote:Are we allowed to name offenders then? I am currently displeased with a certain club who ride in areas West of Edinburgh, but am loath to name them in public 'cos I'm allergic to being sued.0 -
Very stupid to pass cyclists so close. All it takes is a gust of wind and you'd have them all down.
On sportives the near passing is usually down to them all being on the rivet with no energy for any extra distance. Maybe that's what's happening there ? I've not seen it out on the roads by me.0 -
Can you afford to defend yourself against a corporate giant like LD? :Plotus49 wrote:
No-one can sue you successfully as long as it's true. Be polite and stick to the facts and you can be as negative as you like.Kerguelen wrote:Are we allowed to name offenders then? I am currently displeased with a certain club who ride in areas West of Edinburgh, but am loath to name them in public 'cos I'm allergic to being sued.0 -
cyclingsheep wrote:Richmond Park is covered by separate speed rules than public roads and as such cyclists are supposed to adhere to the speed limits in the park, otherwise as you say on public roads that would be the case.
Yes - click on the links and you can read themTom Dean wrote:
Can you afford to defend yourself against a corporate giant like LD? :Plotus49 wrote:
No-one can sue you successfully as long as it's true. Be polite and stick to the facts and you can be as negative as you like.Kerguelen wrote:Are we allowed to name offenders then? I am currently displeased with a certain club who ride in areas West of Edinburgh, but am loath to name them in public 'cos I'm allergic to being sued.
I'm reasonably up on defamation law, and sadly well aware that the burden of proof sits with the defence. So caution is always the best option. 0 -
diy wrote:So a polite request to those who ride in groups - Not everyone wants to ride dangerously close to others, so please a bit of consideration when you pass other cyclists and also a bit of respect for those who want to pass you, when your group slows down.
Hi diy,
I was leading a LD beginners group on Saturday, we definitely made one far-too-close pass (well, one of our riders did). Hope it wasn't us who caused you these issues - I don't recall passing/being passed by another lone rider repeatedly. The close-passing new rider was told, and won't be welcomed back unless his riding improves. That's not an excuse for what happened, of course, but merely highlights some of the issues that occur.
It can be hard to 'manage' a group of totally mixed abilities but we always try to speed up or, more typically, slow down to avoid merging with single riders who are going anti-clockwise round RP.
I'll make sure that you point is mentioned next week, feel free to write an email too if you want.
BTW, IMHO the best course of action is always to start a dialogue on the road, then take it onto forums/emails, etc if you don't get a satisfactory conclusion. Most of LD don't come anywhere near this forum, reading bitchy posts from lots of keyboard warriors gives a good indication why.
Apologies again and thanks for raising the issue in a reasonable way.
Cheers, NIck0 -
Well done that man...
I'm sure it's not easy to lead a group0 -
Unfortunately there are occasions where one person's close is anothers big gap.
People who race often fall foul of this because you get used to riding a couple of inches from another rider and on the road if you give >6 inches it can feel like a huge gap to you but if you take the other rider by surprise it's way too close (guilty on occasion).
Definitely agree with having a polite word if you can. Just remind people the other rider that your comfort zone is bigger than theirs and make them think about how they're passing. I'm willing to bet that 99% of the time it's just habit and in a club ride would probably be fine.0 -
Thanks Nick for taking the time to reply, as said in this thread, I have seen very good skills from LD beginners sessions and I have heard ride leaders very vocal when newbies cause problems. In fact amusingly I was once accidentally chased down by a group leader who told me to hold up and wait for the group. He was very embarrassed when I slowed down and said "what group? I'm not in your group".
There were two LD groups on Saturday, that I could see, so it may not have been your group, however, the issue is the way you rotate when you pass lone riders. You seem to ride 2 a breast and rotate at high frequency anti clockwise (in the group), which makes sense as you don't want to undertake each other. This places you in direct conflict with any other rider you pass as you effectively 1 by 1 overtake and slow down, pushing them out the back forcing them to slow, with each pass. The other scenario I have seen is you overtake as a group, which forces them off the road, particularly if you get a car or group coming the other way.
IMO you can solve it in one of two ways. Slow the frequency of rotation when you suck in other riders or its obvious that others want to pass to give the other rider time to either up his game or get dropped. Stay out when passing and take the lead for a minute or so to allow the group to pass with space (single file).
I would also suggest you don't overtake riders and cars who themselves are held up by slower cyclists, since your groups are too big not to cause those others inconvenience.
I'm sure your club is aware that the highway code, traffic law and legal precedents for injury are not on your side in the event of an accident.0 -
Tom Dean wrote:
Can you afford to defend yourself against a corporate giant like LD? :Plotus49 wrote:
No-one can sue you successfully as long as it's true. Be polite and stick to the facts and you can be as negative as you like.Kerguelen wrote:Are we allowed to name offenders then? I am currently displeased with a certain club who ride in areas West of Edinburgh, but am loath to name them in public 'cos I'm allergic to being sued.
No, I spent all my money on a nice bike. And a nasty one.0
