Counter steering...

elderone

I was just wondering if more experienced riders counter steer.I find I do it with out thinking (and stick me knee out) and guess its from years and years of riding performance motorbikes.To be fair it does seem to help in down hill bends etc,(or it may just be in my head) plus it seems works in side winds aswell.
Now is this a useful tool which improves my riding or is it best kept for motorbikes.
cheers.

Mikey41

Perfectly valid technique for a bike, it drops you into a turn faster. I couldn't tell you if I'm doing it, I don't consciously do it, but I might be. I also stick my knee out on hard turns.

extrusion

Got no idea if i counter steer or not. Used to ride a motorbike and didnt know if i did it then, but i were reet good round donington! i basically just ride the way it feels natural, seems to work for me.

And yes i do stick my knee out, this definitely works, i will be putting the titanium knee sliders on when summer gets here

MattyyP

I've just read this topic, and then tried to think about how I do turn the bike... And i'm not exactly sure lol! I just look where I want to go

elderone

Nice one,seems its motorcycle carry over then.Think i,d need a few sliders to get me knee down on me push bike though.
Matty,thats exactly the point.Your bike WILL go where you look so always keep your eyes where you want to go.

smidsy

Everybody does, the bike would not turn if you did not.

This obviously only applies at speed, going slow round the car park does not count :-)

elderone

Not exactly,counter steering is not used to turn the bike.The bike is turned (at speed) by leaning it into the turn.
What counter steering does is keep the wheel straight (basically).For example,if you are going around a right hand bend then you push the right bar forwards slightly.
As to my op I wasn,t sure if the forces on a push bike are big enough to make it of use.

smidsy

elderone wrote:

Not exactly,counter steering is not used to turn the bike.

Wrong. Counter steering is the only way you can turn something on two wheels running at speed.

Your later comment about pushing inwards (so thats pull then) on the right bar to go right is correct (although badly worded) and proves the above.

What you actually do is push away on the right bar which turns you right. This is done subconsciously so most people do not realise they are doing it.

As a motorcycle trackday instructor of 15 years I can assure you of these facts. When you understand these facts you can actually use them to counteract forces e.g braking while turning (which sits the bike up and runs you wide, unless you add more counter steer to correct it.) This is not to be done until you are very good at bike handling and even then takes a lot of practice to avoid washing the front end.

elderone

smidsy wrote:

elderone wrote:

Not exactly,counter steering is not used to turn the bike.

Wrong. Counter steering is the only way you can turn something on two wheels running at speed.

Your later comment about pushing inwards (so thats pull then) on the right bar to go right is correct (although badly worded) and proves the above.

What you actually do is push away on the left bar which turns you right. This is done subconsciously so most people do not realise they are doing it.

As a motorcycle trackday instructor of 15 years I can assure you of these facts. When you understand these facts you can actually use them to counteract forces e.g braking while turning (which sits the bike up and runs you wide, unless you add more counter steer to correct it.) This is not to be done until you are very good at bike handling and even then takes a lot of practice to avoid washing the front end.

I stand by my statement im afraid.It doesn,t turn the bike on its own its an aid(If you counter steer in a straight line it doesn,t work,all it will do is turn you in the direction you dont want to go,hence the term counter steering).The bike turns by reducing the radius of the tyre by leaning over.Also its not a pull its a push,if I want to turn right as I said i push the right bar forward as im leaning over and obviously this only works at speed enough to generate the forces in a turn.
I do understand the forces and its comman knowledge that breaking sits a bike up in the turn and as you say with practice and skill you can balance the forces to turn under breaking,watch any motogp race shows that.
Any way its about push bikes not motor bikes

nolight

elderone wrote:

I was just wondering if more experienced riders counter steer.

The question should be if less experienced riders counter steer. More experienced riders do it all the time. Pros hardly NOT counter steer.

bompington

I was once cornered by a distinctly "on the spectrum" guy at a party who lectured me on this very subject for a long, long time before I could get away.
None of you guys remind me of him at all of course...

NewTTer

elderone wrote:

smidsy wrote:

elderone wrote:

Not exactly,counter steering is not used to turn the bike.

Wrong. Counter steering is the only way you can turn something on two wheels running at speed.

Your later comment about pushing inwards (so thats pull then) on the right bar to go right is correct (although badly worded) and proves the above.

What you actually do is push away on the left bar which turns you right. This is done subconsciously so most people do not realise they are doing it.

As a motorcycle trackday instructor of 15 years I can assure you of these facts. When you understand these facts you can actually use them to counteract forces e.g braking while turning (which sits the bike up and runs you wide, unless you add more counter steer to correct it.) This is not to be done until you are very good at bike handling and even then takes a lot of practice to avoid washing the front end.

I stand by my statement im afraid.It doesn,t turn the bike on its own its an aid(If you counter steer in a straight line it doesn,t work,all it will do is turn you in the direction you dont want to go,hence the term counter steering).The bike turns by reducing the radius of the tyre by leaning over.Also its not a pull its a push,if I want to turn right as I said i push the right bar forward as im leaning over and obviously this only works at speed enough to generate the forces in a turn.
I do understand the forces and its comman knowledge that breaking sits a bike up in the turn and as you say with practice and skill you can balance the forces to turn under breaking,watch any motogp race shows that.
Any way its about push bikes not motor bikes

Stand by your statement all you like Smidsy is 100% correct, above a certain speed you must counter steer, 99.9% of the time this happens totalluy sub conciously even on a motorbike. However I would not advocate a deliberate hard counter steer to bang a cycle hard into a corner such as you would on a motorcycle the levels of grip available are considerably different.
You can ride a bike along leaning it and continue in a straight line, you theory is flawed as the radius reduction happens on both the front and bacl wheels ergo it continues to track in the same direction on reduced radii front and back, try it, stand on the pedals and push the bike over to one side and carry on in a straight line.

smidsy

Not sure what's going on but the quotes state left bar and I said right - which it should be. Anyway we use a bike with the front end locked to prove that counter steering is the only way, you can lean and push on the foot pegs all you like and you will just go straight.

themekon

Its one of those things that you really don't have to think about let alone worry about.On a push bike you wont know you are doing it and even on a motor bike the same thing applies.
Unless you really want to push into a corner for some reason such as carrying too much speed when a push on the bar will tip you in that direction.
Over many many years I have read such waffle about this in bike magazines, generally it's just folks trying to be a bit clever.

graeme_s-2

As others have said above, you do counter steer on a push bike, but if you can ride a bike, then you're already doing it.

Sheldon Brown wrote:

Some people, particularly motorcyclists, make a big deal out of this as if countersteering is some special advanced riding technique that you must learn to become an expert bike handler. It isn't. It's just a fancy sounding name for the normal process by which any two-wheeler is controlled.

navrig

I used to do it subconciously on the motorbike until I realised that I was doing it then I would either stop or I would try too hard and get the bend wrong. Once I stopped either trying or looking for it, counter steering just became 2nd nature.

I hadn't even thought about it on a bicycle.

elderone

Thanks chaps,useful info and opinions which is great.As far as Im concerned I,ll just carry on same as before as general opinion seems to be thats its used but naturally rather than consciously.
cheers.

herb71

The beauty is, once you know about counter-steering, it does not matter whether you understand it, you can take advantage of it.

Smidsy is correct in his assessment by the way. Counter-steering does turn the bike and initiates the lean. It will also change the lean whilst already in the turn if you need to change your radius.

Smidsy, I am guessing CSS instructor? I know they use the bike with the fixed bars as a demo tool.

smidsy

Herb you are very correct sir

Bigbud

Always wanted to take a course with CSS but I'm trying not to use the m.bike these days

Once you know about Counter steering it really does change the way you take corners and inspires confidence in yourself, I recently enlighted a couple of mates to CS and also explained target fixation.

Coming from a m.bike I find I ride a lot more defensively and am watching the side roads more than a lot of other cyclists, one of the down sides is I'm not scared of the speed ! hit 47mph last year and it didn't worry me at all but I forget I'm not in full gear !

elderone

Bigbud wrote:

Always wanted to take a course with CSS but I'm trying not to use the m.bike these days

Once you know about Counter steering it really does change the way you take corners and inspires confidence in yourself, I recently enlighted a couple of mates to CS and also explained target fixation.

Coming from a m.bike I find I ride a lot more defensively and am watching the side roads more than a lot of other cyclists, one of the down sides is I'm not scared of the speed ! hit 47mph last year and it didn't worry me at all but I forget I'm not in full gear !

Thats interesting as on my MB speed was not an issue but down hills on a push bike I find it much scarier than road or track riding on the MB.Probably because on the cycle at speed I feel more vulnerable to hitting the tarmac.Arai and full leathers not an option though.

lotus49

smidsy wrote:

Everybody does, the bike would not turn if you did not.

This obviously only applies at speed, going slow round the car park does not count :-)

I'm with you.

You may not be conscious that you are doing it but this is how you steer a bike. I used to be a biker and it's the same with a motorbike.

keef66

I was marvelling at it the other day, flying down the hill, weaving all over the road to avoid the potholes and metalwork, not consciously steering but shifting my weight and leaning the bike. I'm sure if I had to think about it I'd probably crash.

brindlescoops

Defo counter steer, its the laws of phyics,

Mikey41

I cannae break the laws of physics Jim

DougL

smidsy wrote:

This obviously only applies at speed, going slow round the car park does not count :-)

Sorry, but it most certainly does

I am also an IAM trained motorcylist and there are loads of youtube videos of motorbikes in a carpark at walking speed countersteering. It's just a wee bit less obvious

smidsy

DougL wrote:

smidsy wrote:

This obviously only applies at speed, going slow round the car park does not count :-)

Sorry, but it most certainly does

I am also an IAM trained motorcylist and there are loads of youtube videos of motorbikes in a carpark at walking speed countersteering. It's just a wee bit less obvious

Indeed. I only included that caviat as there are always people who come straight back at you with the example as they clearly only see that you turn left to go left at such low speeds.

DougL

It's funny, but I deliberately countersteer on a motorcyle, but don't on a bicycle. I'm sure that will come :oops:

Fursty Ferret

If you're thinking about counter-steer on a road bike I suspect you're over-thinking it, to be honest. I actively counter steer on my motorbike but have never, ever felt the need on a road bike, even when cornering at speed ( and yes, I'm always tempted to put my knee down)

smidsy

I suppose it is the added weight and extra speed on a motorcycle that makes you actively do it, as the forces are all working that much harder against you. You are thinking I need to go left now and the motorcycle just wants to carry on going straight.

On a bicycle it just does not seem that much of an issue.