Cheap torque wrench

dhooper7

Can anyone suggest a cheap torque wrench for me?
Just bought a carbon bar...

What are the ideal ranges needed for a mountain bike.

Thanks

cooldad

Your senses are probably better than a rubbish torque wrench.

nicklouse

dhooper7 wrote:

Can anyone suggest a cheap torque wrench for me?
Just bought a carbon bar...

What are the ideal ranges needed for a mountain bike.

Thanks

so why do you think you need a torque wrench?

have you changed the stem?

does the bar have any torque figures for the threaded parts?

just fit and use it.

rolf_f

cooldad wrote:

Your senses are probably better than a rubbish torque wrench.

Scientific analysis apparently suggests otherwise....... Small bolts tend to be over-tightened based on senses and large bolts under-tightened. Even a poorly calibrated torque wrench will offer consistency and the ability to manually calibrate against other bolts on the bike.

EH_Rob

That is quite true.

I'd still say you don't really need one though. I've never had one, have never snapped any carbon or other component, or killed myself.

cooldad

Rolf F wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Your senses are probably better than a rubbish torque wrench.

Scientific analysis apparently suggests otherwise....... Small bolts tend to be over-tightened based on senses and large bolts under-tightened. Even a poorly calibrated torque wrench will offer consistency and the ability to manually calibrate against other bolts on the bike.

Show me the peer reviewed paper, including the results of the poorly calibrated wrench, and I'll reconsider.
Otherwise I'll stick to my opinion.

rolf_f

cooldad wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Your senses are probably better than a rubbish torque wrench.

Scientific analysis apparently suggests otherwise....... Small bolts tend to be over-tightened based on senses and large bolts under-tightened. Even a poorly calibrated torque wrench will offer consistency and the ability to manually calibrate against other bolts on the bike.

Show me the peer reviewed paper, including the results of the poorly calibrated wrench, and I'll reconsider.
Otherwise I'll stick to my opinion.

That's fine. If you are confident then there is probably enough margin for error that you'll be OK - but you probably will understimate the big and over-estimate the small. I suspect I would. The reason that a torque wrench is nice to have though is that it gives me the confidence I wouldn't otherwise have; without it I would continually worry that I had over or undertightened - with it I don't worry and I spend much less time tightening bolts. I find that my BBB torque wrench does appear to be still well calibrated (or at least consistent with the torque values that the original builders of my bikes used) but, as I said, even if it wasn't it doesn't matter really. If there is a bolt tightened to 5nm on my bike but, according to my torque wrench, it is actually tightened to 7nm (a bit of an exaggerration in error I suspect!) I know that I just need to set the wrench to 7nm to replace the bolt at exactly the same torque; the absolute value of the torque setting, and the calibration accuracy of the wrench, is actually irrelevant. That will be more precise than human sense. As for peer reviewed papers - that is certainly the correct request! But sadly of course, too many of those are subscription access only. But I think there is plenty of evidence for this online even so.

dhooper7

I don't understand why some people are so unhelpful on this forum.
It's the same people knocking back questions without answering them...
If my post read... "do I need a torque wrench" by all means give me that response.

Thanks for your help Rolf. What range would you suggest?

Chunkers1980

A range that meets the requirements of your stem and bars.

Just because something is carbon doesn't mean you need a new tool. Proper Allen keys have inbuilt torque gauges with their length.

EH_Rob

I wasn't being unhelpful, I was trying to save you some money.

rolf_f

dhooper7 wrote:

I don't understand why some people are so unhelpful on this forum.
It's the same people knocking back questions without answering them...
If my post read... "do I need a torque wrench" by all means give me that response.

Thanks for your help Rolf. What range would you suggest?

Alternatives areworth considering. Torque keys are an obvious alternative but I've not used them so I'm not sure how the economics stacks up. If my only carbon item is a carbon bar, then I think I'd get the key. For a carbon frame I just think that the fear of cracking the frame and the high cost of replacing or repairing a damaged frame makes the wrench an obvious purchase.

The BBB one I have is 2 - 14nm - it covers everything aside from BB and cassette. For those I use a £15 torque wrench I got from Aldi. This is rather nicely (German) made but without a calibration certificate. But, as said before, at least I know I can re-torque a component to the same torque it was on previously without thinking about it.

The BBB wrench costs £47 from Ribble which isn't that cheap but it is a decent bit of kit, I use it quite frequently, and when I do I always feel pleased I bought it!

cooldad

Rolf F wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Your senses are probably better than a rubbish torque wrench.

Scientific analysis apparently suggests otherwise....... Small bolts tend to be over-tightened based on senses and large bolts under-tightened. Even a poorly calibrated torque wrench will offer consistency and the ability to manually calibrate against other bolts on the bike.

Show me the peer reviewed paper, including the results of the poorly calibrated wrench, and I'll reconsider.
Otherwise I'll stick to my opinion.

That's fine. If you are confident then there is probably enough margin for error that you'll be OK - but you probably will understimate the big and over-estimate the small. I suspect I would. The reason that a torque wrench is nice to have though is that it gives me the confidence I wouldn't otherwise have; without it I would continually worry that I had over or undertightened - with it I don't worry and I spend much less time tightening bolts. I find that my BBB torque wrench does appear to be still well calibrated (or at least consistent with the torque values that the original builders of my bikes used) but, as I said, even if it wasn't it doesn't matter really. If there is a bolt tightened to 5nm on my bike but, according to my torque wrench, it is actually tightened to 7nm (a bit of an exaggerration in error I suspect!) I know that I just need to set the wrench to 7nm to replace the bolt at exactly the same torque; the absolute value of the torque setting, and the calibration accuracy of the wrench, is actually irrelevant. That will be more precise than human sense. As for peer reviewed papers - that is certainly the correct request! But sadly of course, too many of those are subscription access only. But I think there is plenty of evidence for this online even so.

So the science is your imagination?
Well done.

konadawg

Not sure you can get them small enough, but the only cheap (and even less cheap) torque wrench I'd trust would be one of the bendy-shaft gauge-and-pointer types, not the ones that click.

Like these




Also bear in mind that an oily bolt can keep on turning and strip the threads yet never reach the torque setting that the wrench is adjusted to.

Personally I prefer going by feel, unless you are hamfisted the tightening process gives out ample messages, though I will admit that experience plays a part. You have to be rather careful with ally, bearing in mind that max torque is often more than necessary to do the job (but important to ensure that the bolt does not come undone) you could use blue loctite to stay safe yet still have the security.

I only use a t-wrench on big stuff (relatively) such as automotive nuts and bolts, where critical, such as cylinder heads, hub bearing nuts, etc.

rolf_f

cooldad wrote:

So the science is your imagination?
Well done.

Why are you deliberately mis-intepreting me? And what on earth has the parts of my post you have put in bold got to do with 'science being in my imagination'? All I'm doing is trying to help and just because I don't have access to the actual papers doesn't mean that the studies are in my imagination (though, as I implied, I accept that not having access to the papers themselves weakens my argument - but this is a bike forum and I'm not going to subscribe to a scientific publisher just to counter your argument). Why not try to be a bit more constructive and post a peer reviewed paper yourself that says that peoples guesswork is more accurate than a cheap torque wrench if you want to come across all holier than thou? I'm somewhat surprised at you - I thought you were better than that.

EH_Rob

http://jbjs.org/article.aspx?articleid=25712

Although this article is about installing halo's on children, and not mountain bikes, it is about low torque loads, which I guess is what we're on about here.

The jist of it seems to be:

1. Some torque wrenches were accurate, some weren't. Four torque wrenches were tried, they were all within 10% of the actual torque value 70-90% of the time.

2. None of them were especially precise. The authors got multiple examples of the same model of wrench and found significant differences between them (at least two models and as many as five) at three test settings.

Note that I haven't compared these torque settings to those required by an MTB.

I don't know anything about or how much these torque wrenches cost, but as they're medical instruments I would guess that they're probably more expensive than the ones Superstar sell, due to the higher QC that will be needed.

So despite not having conducted a full review of the facts, I'd stick with my original advice of not to bother with one. Torque wrenches are pretty inaccurate and even less precise. Your money though.

dhooper7

Cooldad I suggest you have think about the purpose of forums such as this. I have come across so many posts by you that are sarcastic, scathing and completely unhelpful.
If you don't have anything constructive to say in response to people's posts, don't say anything at all.

cooldad

dhooper7 wrote:

Cooldad I suggest you have think about the purpose of forums such as this. I have come across so many posts by you that are sarcastic, scathing and completely unhelpful.
If you don't have anything constructive to say in response to people's posts, don't say anything at all.

Really?
I said

cooldad wrote:

Your senses are probably better than a rubbish torque wrench.

An opinion, including 'probably'.

He said

Rolf F wrote:

Scientific analysis apparently suggests otherwise....... Small bolts tend to be over-tightened based on senses and large bolts under-tightened. Even a poorly calibrated torque wrench will offer consistency and the ability to manually calibrate against other bolts on the bike.

I asked for evidence of this 'scientific analysis'. That's all. I got waffle.

herb71

Depends what you call cheap? A bad torque wrench is worse than nothing at all.

For my bicycles I tend to go by feel. For my motorbike I use a Halfords professional for mid range, and a Sealey similar to this for low range. It was a gift, so I don't know how much it was at the time but £30 looks like a bargain for mid level kit.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-STW1012- ... 604&sr=8-3

Dan_xz

Herb71 wrote:

Depends what you call cheap? A bad torque wrench is worse than nothing at all.

For my bicycles I tend to go by feel. For my motorbike I use a Halfords professional for mid range, and a Sealey similar to this for low range. It was a gift, so I don't know how much it was at the time but £30 looks like a bargain for mid level kit.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-STW1012- ... 604&sr=8-3

I have had that one for bike stuff for a couple of years now, does the job fine for me.

carbonkid

if your gonna bolt something carbon to something metal ALLWAYS use a torque wrench. its very east to 'crush' carbon which will cause the resin to wear away and maybe crack, just sayin.

Chunkers1980

In.

cooldad

Chunkers1980 wrote:

In.

Um?

Chunkers1980

carbonkid wrote:

just sayin.

So I did, CD.

speedymoto

For what it's worth I have just purchased an x-tools 2-24 Nm torque wrench from chainreaction (£26.90), it's a chinese 'off the shelf' tool with x-tools sticker on the case, the design is bog standard & the quality is ok but I'd have preferred something better - there's an FSA one on ebay for about £60 (search "cycle torque wrench") which I imagine would be a much nicer tool but it's over twice the price.

Click-type wrenches work optimally somewhere between the min & max values, so if you're looking for something suitable for cycle work I'd say avoid ones starting at 5 or 6Nm which are fairly typical of values you'll be using most of the time. Because of the relatively low values I have no issues using a cheap tool, even if it's way out - say 15 - 20% off in a worst case scenario (which it probably isn't) - at these low values it is (probably) unlikely to cause any serious problems, torquing a bolt to 6Nm instead of 5Nm or vice-versa shouldn't cause very serious problems, even though it might not be ideal. And I always use common sense long with the wrench!

Using a different high quality torque wrench on my motorbikes, I'm always amazed how softly many bolts need to be tightened (eg drain plug/ brake calliper bolts), but then again the rear axle needs a lot more torque than I was previously using, strongly backing up an earlier reply stating "low values are over-torqued, high values are under-torqued"

Don't forget to use your own common sense, 6Nm is really very very easy to overdo........

speedymoto

.....turns out the FSA one is actually a Effetto Mariposa Giustaforza 2-16Nm one, so at that price I couldn't resist!

3 left, so be quick

nicklouse

carbonkid wrote:

if your gonna bolt something carbon to something metal ALLWAYS use a torque wrench. its very east to 'crush' carbon which will cause the resin to wear away and maybe crack, just sayin.

and that has nothing to do with a Torque setting.

carbonkid

nicklouse wrote:

carbonkid wrote:

if your gonna bolt something carbon to something metal ALLWAYS use a torque wrench. its very east to 'crush' carbon which will cause the resin to wear away and maybe crack, just sayin.

and that has nothing to do with a Torque setting.

oh yes it does

Cubist

dhooper7 wrote:

I don't understand why some people are so unhelpful on this forum.
It's the same people knocking back questions without answering them...

Ive noticed this too and its probably the reason I dont post on here more than I do - I think Id start to find the usual suspects very tiresome.
It seems that some people think that this is some kind of "old boys club" rather than a public forum! :roll:

carbonkid

Cubist wrote:

dhooper7 wrote:

I don't understand why some people are so unhelpful on this forum.
It's the same people knocking back questions without answering them...

Ive noticed this too and its probably the reason I dont post on here more than I do - I think Id start to find the usual suspects very tiresome.
It seems that some people think that this is some kind of "old boys club" rather than a public forum! :roll:

try making a comment on moredirt then, shot down in flames every time thats why i use this site now

Cubist

carbonkid wrote:

Cubist wrote:

dhooper7 wrote:

I don't understand why some people are so unhelpful on this forum.
It's the same people knocking back questions without answering them...

Ive noticed this too and its probably the reason I dont post on here more than I do - I think Id start to find the usual suspects very tiresome.
It seems that some people think that this is some kind of "old boys club" rather than a public forum! :roll:

try making a comment on moredirt then, shot down in flames every time thats why i use this site now

Shame isnt it? Such a supposedly blokey hobby too.