Question for the Freelancers...

thekickingmule

I do a bit of freelance work for the place I work regularly, every now and then. They're ok with me doing this, because it's for external courses put on.
Anyway, I charge £20 per hour, and last week I did 4 hours work, so earned a nice tidy sum, for not much work. However, on Sunday, I travelled 45 miles to and from the work. It took me an hour and a half in total, so I charged them £30 for this, but they've refused to pay it.

Now on this occasion, I've just said 'fine' but I was wondering what you would do. Do you charge for travel? In future, I've set up the computers so that I won't be needed for much more than an hour, but if I'm in Bury on Sundays, it wouldn't really be in my interest driving for 1.5 hours and working for 1, to only earn £20.

Do I simply say 'Pay the travel or I don't come' or do I up the rate? To be honest, for one hour, I'd have to double my rate to even think of it as worth while.

Maybe to put it into perspective a bit, if I don't do the work, they'd phone up a local company that charge £400 a day to be on callout, and then charge £115 per hour if they are called out. So I'm not asking a lot really!

Sorry, I've waffled, but any advice would be great.

Cheers

projectsome

Did you agree the price increase beforehand? Do you have this info anywhere, like a website/ad etc? If I knew a client paid £20 for something, I wouldn't want to pay £30 regardless of travel, unless otherwise agreed beforehand.

thekickingmule

All I said was that I pay £20 per hour as it's in my spare time. I said that i was travelling over from Bury, fair enough I never mentioned I'd charge them for it.

Maybe next time I'll say "I'll do it if you pay my travel expenses". If they say they won't, I'll simply pull out.

Rucks

I'm pretty much in the same boat, charging a firm I do regular work for an hourly rate, first couple of jobs we ironed out the details and now were both happy with the way things work, I charge a reasonable hourly rate which includes travel plus fuel and mileage ontop, think the best thing is to talk to them and meet in the middle, too expensive and they won't use you but don't sell yourself short either

supersonic

You have to put all charges up front.

Woodmonkey

a lot of contractors we use have an initial charge incl the first hour then an hourly rate on top for any extra hours. this would help cover travel and make short jobs worthwhile.
and like super said make sure they know up front.

thekickingmule

That's not a bad idea at all. So I could put a £60 flat rate down, then charge my £20 per hour from the second hour.
Hmmm very nice suggestion!
I'm happy to listen to more, cheers all!

Lagrange

You and they are taking a risk if the payments are not made through the company payroll.

thekickingmule

Why are we? They need a Mac Expert to support the start of an exam. I am one. I am employed 5 days a week, Monday to Friday. The exams are on Sundays when there is no support.
They happen to know one. Me. I get paid after I invoice them for the work I've done. How is it different to employing someone else?

supersonic

Are you set up self employed though for this?

thekickingmule

Yeah, I have to do my self tax for any freelance stuff I do.

supersonic

Sounds all legit, as long as your company don't see you as competing with them. Some don't like it!

thekickingmule

Noooo no, I'm not competeing with them, I'm supporting some of the exams they put on. If they did the exams during the week, I'd have to do it as part of my job, because it's the weekend, they have to get someone in to prevent any difficulties.

Think I'm going to go down the flat rate of £60 and take it from there. Cheers everyone!

welshkev

unless agreed upfront then i'd say you have to grin and bear it. they don't pay you for your travel time to work normally do they?

when i hire freelancers and say the job is in birmingham, then i'll agree fuel costs with them and if they travel on a different day then a travel day rate is paid. but i wouldn't pay a freelancer if he had to travel for an hour to get to a job, 2 hours extra wage.

sorry

thekickingmule

Yeah, I was being a bit cheeky I think, but I thought I'd go for it.

As I've said, I'll explain to the people that will employ me that I'll have to place a flat fee down first, which covers any travel and my first hour's work. That seems fair in my opinion.

No, they don't pay me usually to travel to work, but then again, I live nearby during the week, because I'm then near work, but at weekends I travel to Bury, and I'm being employed externally as far as they're concerned. I can see your point though

Lagrange

thekickingmule wrote:

Why are we? They need a Mac Expert to support the start of an exam. I am one. I am employed 5 days a week, Monday to Friday. The exams are on Sundays when there is no support.
They happen to know one. Me. I get paid after I invoice them for the work I've done. How is it different to employing someone else?

1. because the company needs to pay NIC on your earnings because you are an employee and this is a scheme set up to avoid NIC. Secondly you have become self employed and thus will lose out on any unemployment benefits should your weekday job go. And lastly because your taxation is on total earnings then it makes no difference. Even as a contractor home to work mileage is not deductable.

thekickingmule

Fark it, I don't care. They're not employing me as an employee though, so I fail to see the difference. I shouldn't become unemployed, unless the company goes bust*, which isn't likely. I don't mind the tax on it, I still get the money in the bank, and it's better than a kick in the teeth, but that's why I was asking in the first place, as I'm not going to work for nothing, if I don't get owt from it.

*Being an educational place is a lot more difficult than you can imagine, and I'd have 3 years minimum to find a new job, I'd also be one of the last to leave if it did close due to what I do

Rucks

This page might be of some help?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/new-cis/cis349.pdf

Think if I remember correctly as self-employed there is a clause where you must work for a multiple of contractors over a period of time, thats easy enough to get round though, as for paying NIC as a registered Buisness you will get bills to pay your own, I take it the company is paying your tax at source on your buisness UTR for the sub work and weekly wages to another tax code?

anj132

Rucks wrote:

This page might be of some help?

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/new-cis/cis349.pdf

Think if I remember correctly as self-employed there is a clause where you must work for a multiple of contractors over a period of time, thats easy enough to get round though, as for paying NIC as a registered Buisness you will get bills to pay your own, I take it the company is paying your tax at source on your buisness UTR for the sub work and weekly wages to another tax code?

thekickingmule wrote:

a Mac Expert

HMRC wrote:

The Construction Industry Scheme (CIS) is a set of special rules for handling payments made by contractors to subcontractors for construction work

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/cis/intro/decide-if-cis.htm

Lagrange

This stuff is to do with IR35 and SUB contractors. KM is in a position where he is a bona fide employee and also freelance contractor to the same organisation. The outcome that is being sought is for weekend emoluments - pay or travel to be considered deductable for NI and tax which is advantageous to all - except HMRC!

Rucks

Lagrange wrote:

This stuff is to do with IR35 and SUB contractors. KM is in a position where he is a bona fide employee and also freelance contractor to the same organisation. The outcome that is being sought is for weekend emoluments - pay or travel to be considered deductable for NI and tax which is advantageous to all - except HMRC!

Ah poo to em, the government take enough money off us in taxes, fact is he's not breaking the law

Thekickingmule you carry on doing what your doing, just make sure if you are only paying 20% tax on your invoices to set some money aside if you are going to be earning over the new 32,000 tax band

anj132

Lagrange wrote:

This stuff is to do with IR35 and SUB contractors. KM is in a position where he is a bona fide employee and also freelance contractor to the same organisation. The outcome that is being sought is for weekend emoluments - pay or travel to be considered deductable for NI and tax which is advantageous to all - except HMRC!

I am not an IR35 expert but I don't think he would be caught up in this - he hasn't stated he is operating it through a personal service company or partnership that I can see. He will still pay tax albeit less NI on those earnings.

Although I would agree that he is on sticky grounds to prove he is not an employee on the weekend, but there are probably ways around it to prove he is "trading", but probably needs to make more steps to show he is.

Rucks wrote:

Ah poo to em, the government take enough money off us in taxes, fact is he's not breaking the law
Thekickingmule you carry on doing what your doing, just make sure if you are only paying 20% tax on your invoices to set some money aside if you are going to be earning over the new 32,000 tax band

He isn't working in the construction industry and he won't have 20% deducted at source.

thekickingmule

No, no 20% deducted on anything.

This looks like it's getting off hand/off topic (I have no idea what a lot of this is). I won't be earning anywhere near £32,000. Wouldn't mind if I did!

I don't have a company or partnership, I just do odd job things for people. Not just the place I work during the week. Not sure if you're aware, but when I started this thread about working for my employer, it's only 4 or 5 Sundays a year, we're not talking every week here. My grand total earnings from me invoicing them, will come to something like £400 for the year, so I'm not going to be on the governments hit list any time soon.

I'm in talks with the person now for the next course they need me for. I'm saying that I'll do the day for £60. I'm not after making a living from this, it's just pocket money