Red light running

typekitty

lotus49 wrote:

I would stop for two reasons. Firstly, because I genuinely believe that road users should try to stick to the rules unless it is dangerous to do so but secondly because not stopping would rob me of the pleasure of being sanctimonious on Bike Radar .

Exactly. Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

chrisaonabike

964Cup wrote:

You are driving/cycling down into a bowl-shaped depression. At the centre of the bowl is a traffic-light controlled crossroads. Because of the shape of the bowl, you can see for at least two miles up each of the roads which meet at the crossroads. There is no traffic (nor any pedestrians) in sight. The traffic light is red against you. Do you stop?

NB: There is no red light camera, and no policeman lurking behind a hedge. No-one will know - except you - whether you stopped or not.

Based on this information, I would definitely not stop.

- It is safe to go,
- There is no one whose view of cyclists' would be affected if I stopped.
- There is no punishment for not stopping.

In the real world, it's very difficult to guarantee all three of these.

For the record, on Sunday, I jumped a red light. It went red on me just as I arrived at the junction, and I happen to know that it stays red for ages. Usually I stop there. However, I was on a mission to rescue my OH who'd injured her foot running, was in pain and getting cold, and couldn't drive the car.

In that circumstance, sod the law, frankly.

gloomyandy

jonomc4 wrote:

I sincerely believe that cyclists should be able to turn left on a red provided they are close into the curb. I would be grateful if someone could explain logic behind why this is not allowed by law - what is the reasoning behind it?

Because just around the corner you are about to turn into there is a little old lady (who has been waiting for the little man to turn green) about to step into the road and who will not be expecting you?

bigmat

typekitty wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

WTF again?! You think we don't pay for the roads? Do you not pay tax? Surely you don't actually think that motorists pay road tax and that pays gor the roads? Jesus wept... :roll:

chrisaonabike

gloomyandy wrote:

jonomc4 wrote:

I sincerely believe that cyclists should be able to turn left on a red provided they are close into the curb. I would be grateful if someone could explain logic behind why this is not allowed by law - what is the reasoning behind it?

Because just around the corner you are about to turn into there is a little old lady (who has been waiting for the little man to turn green) about to step into the road and who will not be expecting you?

This is no good. Obviously you don't proceed anywhere, legally or illegally, if you can't see to establish there are no obstacles.

You can often turn right on a red in the USA - the only reasons I can think of for not implementing the corresponding rule here is that a) junctions are often easier to see round in the USA, and b) people here are probably too stupid to understand that that even though they'd be allowed to turn left on a red, it wouldn't give them right of way. In the same way, the simple and effective four-way stops in the USA would be no good here.

Ginjafro

Seems to me that RLJing is just another great topic for trolling and being thrashed to death like the good old debates on helmets, myopic peds, myopic drivers and nodders on BSOs. The issues have become too polarized to actually change anything, one way or the other. The "Tarantino" solution would be a to kill everything and everyone but somewhat impractical on a daily basis. Sadly though many of us are unwittingly becoming victims of just another branch of "road rage", anything that gets in our way or annoys is amplified and we blow a gasket..... Consequence, we hate everyone that we think drives, rides and walks like a tool, stress levels shoot up but worst of all we start to hate cycling!

Thankfully, I don't live in the kind of big city or town where such problems are common place, however I still have to try and reign it in when occasionally someone P isses me off with crap riding, driving or walking, I am not infallible. My solution? Lacking any realistic prospect of significant improvements in social culture and behaviour I try, and it is difficult sometimes, to be Zen like, ie chill, together with thinking ahead, anticipation and avoiding conflicts. Other than that method of self preservation I can't think of any other way to minimise the risk to my health, well being and love of cycling.

nolight

For functional reason, redlight running should not be done cos you may be killed by people who jumps redlight. Redlight jumping should not be done cos you may be killed by people who runs redlight.

Froomes Edgar

typekitty wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

I would stop for two reasons. Firstly, because I genuinely believe that road users should try to stick to the rules unless it is dangerous to do so but secondly because not stopping would rob me of the pleasure of being sanctimonious on Bike Radar .

Exactly. Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

We all use the roads for "free" - they're paid for out of general taxation. Vehicle tax (which is based on engine size and type, which is why bikes don't pay it) is not hypothecated FFS

typekitty

BigMat wrote:

typekitty wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

WTF again?! You think we don't pay for the roads? Do you not pay tax? Surely you don't actually think that motorists pay road tax and that pays gor the roads? Jesus wept... :roll:

Ok ok, fair point, so does that exempt us from the law? I pay tax so I can do what I like, boo yah. RLJ (at junctions, especially) is annoying and makes me look bad. Blah blah blah.

bigmat

typekitty wrote:

BigMat wrote:

typekitty wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

WTF again?! You think we don't pay for the roads? Do you not pay tax? Surely you don't actually think that motorists pay road tax and that pays gor the roads? Jesus wept... :roll:

Ok ok, fair point, so does that exempt us from the law? I pay tax so I can do what I like, boo yah. RLJ (at junctions, especially) is annoying and makes me look bad. Blah blah blah.

sorry if I was a bit abrupt above - it was late, I was hammering away on a smartphone etc etc. Still, its an important point which hopefully you've picked up on now! no problem with people stopping at red lights, just don't think its necessary a lot of the time. lots of laws are pointless, regularly flouted and rarely enforced and sensible RLJ falls within that category for me!

typekitty

BigMat wrote:

typekitty wrote:

BigMat wrote:

typekitty wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

WTF again?! You think we don't pay for the roads? Do you not pay tax? Surely you don't actually think that motorists pay road tax and that pays gor the roads? Jesus wept... :roll:

Ok ok, fair point, so does that exempt us from the law? I pay tax so I can do what I like, boo yah. RLJ (at junctions, especially) is annoying and makes me look bad. Blah blah blah.

sorry if I was a bit abrupt above - it was late, I was hammering away on a smartphone etc etc. Still, its an important point which hopefully you've picked up on now! no problem with people stopping at red lights, just don't think its necessary a lot of the time. lots of laws are pointless, regularly flouted and rarely enforced and sensible RLJ falls within that category for me!

No hard feelings I feel the same way about helmet laws – such a stupid thing to enforce. Don't want to start that discussion BTW!

964cup

I made a terrible mistake. I apologise.

There aren't 18 traffic lights on my commute.

There are 41. I counted, this morning.

That's one every 229 metres.

Red-light jumping or not, that's just stupid. Time to move, I think.

rolf_f

typekitty wrote:

BigMat wrote:

typekitty wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

Boils down to us being on the road for free. The least we can do is be respectful of the road rules. Simples.

WTF again?! You think we don't pay for the roads? Do you not pay tax? Surely you don't actually think that motorists pay road tax and that pays gor the roads? Jesus wept... :roll:

Ok ok, fair point, so does that exempt us from the law? I pay tax so I can do what I like, boo yah. RLJ (at junctions, especially) is annoying and makes me look bad. Blah blah blah.

That's actually the point you seemed to be making - ie the least we can do is respect the rules if we are on the road for free therefore if we pay road tax we should be allowed to break the rules!

Still, the argument that the motorist pays for the roads and we don't probably isn't entirely wrong in a way. Road tax might not be used for road maintenance but if it wasn't taken, that would be a big hole in the countrys tax take which would have to be sourced from somewhere else. But then that ignores the fact that most cyclists have cars.....

typekitty

Rolf F wrote:

That's actually the point you seemed to be making - ie the least we can do is respect the rules if we are on the road for free therefore if we pay road tax we should be allowed to break the rules!

Nice one

@964Cup You've inspired me to count the traffic lights on my commute.

ToeKnee

typekitty wrote:

@964Cup You've inspired me to count the traffic lights on my commute.

Indeed and I keep losing count! The answer will be somewhere north of thirty ... once I get the same number on consecutive days I'll report back .... and, yes, I stop at *all* of the red ones.

bernithebiker

Basically there should be big cycle super-highways that criss-cross every city to the detriment of car drivers, so the question of red light jumping would hardly ever come up.

Bicycles have far more right to be in cities than cars do, IMO, and should have priority.

slowbike

I've just quickly counted the number of lights on my commute ....


er ...

Zero!

but we do have a school crossing lady to contend with in the morning ... but as she's friendly she lets us by first!

TakeTurns

ToeKnee wrote:

typekitty wrote:

@964Cup You've inspired me to count the traffic lights on my commute.

Indeed and I keep losing count! The answer will be somewhere north of thirty ... once I get the same number on consecutive days I'll report back .... and, yes, I stop at *all* of the red ones.

I don't commute on my bike. However, I occasionally ride through the city if I fancy riding at Richmond Park. Otherwise I'll head outside London.

I just visualised the first 3/19miles of my ride into Richmond and counted 19 traffic lights. :roll:

LegendLust

964Cup wrote:

I made a terrible mistake. I apologise.

There aren't 18 traffic lights on my commute.

There are 41. I counted, this morning.

That's one every 229 metres.

Red-light jumping or not, that's just stupid. Time to move, I think.

So the streets of London aren't paved with gold after all. more like grey metal poles

lotus49

964Cup wrote:

Red-light jumping or not, that's just stupid. Time to move, I think.

I had been going to suggest that.

I lived in London for 15 years (and loved it I might add) but Yorkshire is a far better place to be a cyclist. We have the most beautiful countryside in England and the roads in the North Riding are fairly quiet and almost entirely free of traffic lights. Added to which, the drivers seem to be remarkably tolerant and considerate. I don't entirely understand why because they aren't like that to the other car drivers .

LegendLust

lotus49 wrote:

964Cup wrote:

Red-light jumping or not, that's just stupid. Time to move, I think.

I had been going to suggest that.

I lived in London for 15 years (and loved it I might add) but Yorkshire is a far better place to be a cyclist. We have the most beautiful countryside in England and the roads in the North Riding are fairly quiet and almost entirely free of traffic lights. Added to which, the drivers seem to be remarkably tolerant and considerate. I don't entirely understand why because they aren't like that to the other car drivers .

Which part of Yorkshire do you ride in :shock:

lotus49

LegendLust wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

...Added to which, the drivers seem to be remarkably tolerant and considerate.

Which part of Yorkshire do you ride in :shock:

I mostly ride around Wharfedale. I haven't been into Leeds and I can't say I fancy it much. Would I be correct in guessing that you would take a less charitable view of the quality of the driving where you ride?

LegendLust

lotus49 wrote:

LegendLust wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

...Added to which, the drivers seem to be remarkably tolerant and considerate.

Which part of Yorkshire do you ride in :shock:

I mostly ride around Wharfedale. I haven't been into Leeds and I can't say I fancy it much. Would I be correct in guessing that you would take a less charitable view of the quality of the driving where you ride?

Well North Leeds/Lower Wharfedale leaves a lot to be desired. Mind you I've come to the conclusion that there's nob heads everywhere!

southeastcyclist

You would probably not run red lights if you saw the incident I did a couple of months ago.
Cyclist on the road obviously sights no one on the pedestrian crossing so with no sign of slowing runs the red light, what he does not see is the other cyclist on road bike racing along the pavement who on seeing the lights change cuts into the road (not on the crossing but from before the barriers along the side of the road) to cross.
Neither see each other until the heavy impact just after the crossing.
Two very broken bikes, two very battered riders and no sympathy from anyone who saw it.

Froomes Edgar

southeastcyclist wrote:

You would probably not run red lights if you saw the incident I did a couple of months ago.
Cyclist on the road obviously sights no one on the pedestrian crossing so with no sign of slowing runs the red light, what he does not see is the other cyclist on road bike racing along the pavement who on seeing the lights change cuts into the road (not on the crossing but from before the barriers along the side of the road) to cross.
Neither see each other until the heavy impact just after the crossing.
Two very broken bikes, two very battered riders and no sympathy from anyone who saw it.

Wow, that anecdote has changed my perspective, not only of RLJing but on life in general.