Altered documents

Peddle Up!
Peddle Up! Posts: 2,040
edited January 2013 in The cake stop
A slightly odd question for a cycling forum, but there seem to be a few bright sparks about, so why not? :)

I have a document that I suspect has been altered by ticking boxes previously left blank. How can I investigate this?

Thanks.
Purveyor of "up" :)

Comments

  • desweller
    desweller Posts: 5,175
    Is this a piece of paper or an electronic file?
    - - - - - - - - - -
    On Strava.{/url}
  • RonB
    RonB Posts: 3,984
    In my version of MSWord, I would go File > Properties > Statistics to find out when the document was last modified. Hope this helps.
  • Peddle Up!
    Peddle Up! Posts: 2,040
    To clarify, it's a printed form that has been filled-in by hand.
    Purveyor of "up" :)
  • RonB
    RonB Posts: 3,984
    Best ignore my previous then!
  • majormantra
    majormantra Posts: 2,094
    Without going into serious forensics I don't see how you'd tell. And if the time period between the original filling in and the alteration is short then it may be impossible to prove conclusively.
  • Peddle Up!
    Peddle Up! Posts: 2,040
    MajorMantra wrote:
    Without going into serious forensics I don't see how you'd tell. And if the time period between the original filling in and the alteration is short then it may be impossible to prove conclusively.


    Hmmm... CSI W H Smith then. :?
    Purveyor of "up" :)
  • danlikesbikes
    danlikesbikes Posts: 3,898
    Could use a digital camera & photograph the tick boxes. Would suggest you do a selection of those you think were originally ticked & those which were not. Best done either on a light box, or if you have a glass coffee table with some light under it.

    Then just use the highest resolution pictures & compare whilst magnified on your computer. You might be able to figure out if a slightly different colour, thickness (at magnification you'd be surprised how 2 similar looking ball points look) plus you should also be able to see how each mark has dried at the end of each pen stroke.
    Pain hurts much less if its topped off with beating your mates to top of a climb.
  • Peddle Up!
    Peddle Up! Posts: 2,040
    Danlikesbikes wrote:
    Could use a digital camera & photograph the tick boxes. Would suggest you do a selection of those you think were originally ticked & those which were not. Best done either on a light box, or if you have a glass coffee table with some light under it.

    Then just use the highest resolution pictures & compare whilst magnified on your computer. You might be able to figure out if a slightly different colour, thickness (at magnification you'd be surprised how 2 similar looking ball points look) plus you should also be able to see how each mark has dried at the end of each pen stroke.

    That was as far as I got with my thoughts. Thanks - I'll give it a go.
    Purveyor of "up" :)
  • Ber Nard
    Ber Nard Posts: 827
    You could possibly go by feel. Some people are very heavy handed and leave a noticeable indent on the paper. Some people don't.

    Rob
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,340
    +1 for high res imaging, ideally a raw mode image rather than a lossy compressed one like jpeg

    one trick is to use two or three different light sources, daylight, incandescent and flash for instance, ideally with exactly the same camera-document position so that you can look for colour shifts in the inks in the various boxes
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • lucan2
    lucan2 Posts: 293
    Why not compare it to a copy of the original? Count the ticks on each and if there is a different number of ticks on each, voila!
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    I suppose you could scan the doc into pshop and if someone has used a different ink the rgb/hex value would show up as different - different pressures can give different (lighter darker ) hues.

    There is a way using iron filings to determine how old the ink is too - i saw it on csi bolton with fred dibnah.

    Funnily enough I'm just reading a sherlock holmes story at the mo - if the document had johnathan small on it then beware of a one legged man on a boat. you have been warned :lol:
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.
  • capt_slog
    capt_slog Posts: 3,973
    It could be worth looking at the back of the doc under a slanting light. There might be a chance that the two sets of ticks were made when the docs were on different harnesses of backing, and there will be a difference of pressure through.

    Largely what has been said above re photoshop, but another way of looking for it.


    The older I get, the better I was.

  • alan_sherman
    alan_sherman Posts: 1,157
    Why bother with the investigation? If it is your son's school report it was doctored :twisted:

    It it is a legal document then your investigation doesn't stand up in court.
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    alan sherman wrote:
    Why bother with the investigation? If it is your son's school report it was doctored :twisted:

    It it is a legal document then your investigation doesn't stand up in court.

    Its the ballot forms from the last election - he's still trying to convince everyone that his "MAMILS Against The Bomb Party" got more than one vote.....mine by the way. :lol:
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,462
    Would this relate to a payment protection claim by any chance? If so, I had the same thing - I knew for a fact that I didn't tick all the boxes on the original application form myself and the ticks were completely different to my own but it was with a store card provider that wasn't regulated and when they 'investigated' my claim they said there was no evidence.
  • lemon63
    lemon63 Posts: 253
    Pross wrote:
    Would this relate to a payment protection claim by any chance? If so, I had the same thing - I knew for a fact that I didn't tick all the boxes on the original application form myself and the ticks were completely different to my own but it was with a store card provider that wasn't regulated and when they 'investigated' my claim they said there was no evidence.
    I had exactly the same with a loan from a northern bank, I only noticed on a statement after 4 years of the paying the loan that they'd were stinging me for PPI (don't ask :? ). I said I didn't tick the box they said I did, I said I never, swore a bit and gave up. Then a few days later a cold caller rang offering to reclaim any PPI, was just about to slam down phone when I remembered this PPI. Long storey short, they managed to re-coup all the PPI +8% interest. Happy days.

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