Oscar points finger at Football

timoid.

Perreiro hints at doping in La Primera Liga

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... se?cc=5739

An earlier on Bleacher Report article specifically mentioned Messi, but it's been taken down.

pat1cp

I think it's pretty common knowledge that Barcelona had Messi on HGH as a teenager for "therapeutic" reasons.

Richmond Racer

Eek....

Well, this is what happens when one single sport gets the villification cycling's getting right now. Cyclists who might have some knowledge about other athletes from other sports where AD has been so negligent, start kicking back.

Ben6899

Messi was - legitimately - on a growth hormone.

As for the rest of the Barcelona squad... how could I possibly comment?

prawny

Ben6899 wrote:

Messi was - legitimately - on a growth hormone.

Pfft, I was born with a talent deficiency, does that mean I can take banned products?

Ben6899

prawny wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Messi was - legitimately - on a growth hormone.

Pfft, I was born with a talent deficiency, does that mean I can take banned products?

I'm not saying it was morally 'right', just that it was all above board.

dougzz

Dick Pound "Ahhh yes, the peloton full of brave asthmatics riding at the Tour - it's not just in cycling either "
TUE is not really 'above board' either.

sherer

when Puerto happened it was linked to football to but that quickly went away. We've heard the same doping doctors used in cycling be linked to football clubs and it's nieve to think only one sport has a problem. At least cycling tries to catch the cheats unlike football and tennis that pretend the problem doesn't exist

samb01

pat1cp wrote:

I think it's pretty common knowledge that Barcelona had Messi on HGH as a teenager for "therapeutic" reasons.

What a way to phrase it. Barcelona paid for his treatment. He was diagnosed in Argentina, the family couldn't afford the treatment nor find an Argentinian team willing to pay for it.

But yeah. the 'morally right' thing of course would have been for Messi to remain a dwarf. It's so unfair!

cornerblock

I can categorically say that Fernando Torres is not on PED's. Certainly not for the past two years anyway.

rick_chasey

The difference is I seriously doubt you see any league two teams doping in any meaningful way whatsoever.

Cycling teams in the 90s and 2000s however...

dougzz

samb01 wrote:

pat1cp wrote:

I think it's pretty common knowledge that Barcelona had Messi on HGH as a teenager for "therapeutic" reasons.

What a way to phrase it. Barcelona paid for his treatment. He was diagnosed in Argentina, the family couldn't afford the treatment nor find an Argentinian team willing to pay for it.
But yeah. the 'morally right' thing of course would have been for Messi to remain a dwarf. It's so unfair!

Where do you draw the line though. Just a bit of devil's advocate here. You're born and you are what you are. Why is it OK for Messi to use HGH (assuming he did) when this improves him as a footballer amongst other things, but it's not OK to use a EPO/blood doping regime to improve as a sportsman. At what point does a TUE excuse become just that, an excuse. It's not hard to find a moody doctor is it.
In a smaller more cycling specific way why is a cream to help with a saddle sore OK if a doctor says so, but not a medical process to help with tired legs. It's all very confusing.

Tom Butcher

Just for interest Maradona also took HGH as a teenager for the same reasons as Messi - ie legally and above board.

fidgetyphil

Tom Butcher wrote:

Just for interest Maradona also took HGH as a teenager for the same reasons as Messi - ie legally and above board.

Just out of interest, what was the reason?

KieranHardman

The only reason Messi's seems acceptable is that he was given stuff to enable him to grow a little more to average height as a kid. If it was paid for by Barcelona there is no difference between this and some basketball team paying for a kid to grow to 7' instead of 6' because he is naturally talented.

However Messi had a stunted development as a kid and fell below the usual size distribution for kids his age. Even if he showed no talent in sport he would have been put on the same stuff had he had the funds. Whereas the basketball kid would not be given those same drugs.

Surely the TUE is reviewed by the medical department of the governing body? Not just accepted at face value, so it doesnt matter what dodgy doctor you go to.

samb01

dougzz wrote:

Where do you draw the line though. Just a bit of devil's advocate here. You're born and you are what you are. Why is it OK for Messi to use HGH (assuming he did) when this improves him as a footballer amongst other things, but it's not OK to use a EPO/blood doping regime to improve as a sportsman. At what point does a TUE excuse become just that, an excuse. It's not hard to find a moody doctor is it.
In a smaller more cycling specific way why is a cream to help with a saddle sore OK if a doctor says so, but not a medical process to help with tired legs. It's all very confusing.

"Where do you draw the line"?? Should we draw the line at giving a *child* normal medical treatment? The treatment consisted of making up for his bodies deficiency in producing growth hormones, and as far as we know, and there is no reason to assume otherwise, what he was given was simply making up the difference wrt what the avg. kid produce naturally.

Yes, it gave him a sporting advantage. It made him normal sized.

samb01

KieranHardman wrote:

The only reason Messi's seems acceptable is that he was given stuff to enable him to grow a little more to average height as a kid. If it was paid for by Barcelona there is no difference between this and some basketball team paying for a kid to grow to 7' instead of 6' because he is naturally talented.

In Norway we tend to do the opposite. Children who are 'in danger' of becoming too tall (I would guess around 1.95+ m for men, 1.85+ m for women) are given the option of getting growth-inhibiting hormones. Not an uncommon treatment.

Pross

Is HGH even that much of a benefit in a footballer? Maybe in a big, powerful central defender or striker but a player like Messi is all about skill so not really much help there or does it alos improve attributes like speed? Given the amount of steroid use in low level amateur rugby I wouldn't be at all surprised to see HGH being used systematically at the highest levels. Teams going off to use the cryo chamber in Poland sets alarm bells ringing for me. Whilst the increase in size and speed is no doubt in part down to the professional era and players doing daily speed and weight training sessions the increase in size of backs (in particular) is huge. Whilst Jonah Lomu would still be bigger than most today he was considered a 'freak' by Carling at the time and there are now many players who are getting close to him in terms of size whilst maintaining their speed. No doubt some are just naturally built that way but it is starting to become the norm. I hope I'm wrong on this but the cynicism of years watching cycling make me fear I might not be.

Ben6899

Pross wrote:

Is HGH even that much of a benefit in a footballer? Maybe in a big, powerful central defender or striker but a player like Messi is all about skill so not really much help there or does it alos improve attributes like speed?

You can have all the skill and speed in the world, but if you lack physical strength (he would have been considerably weaker than the average, but for the HGH) then you won't make much of a footballer.

chrisday

The old footie adage still holds true - "A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un"...

Trev The Rev

Pross wrote:

Is HGH even that much of a benefit in a footballer? Maybe in a big, powerful central defender or striker but a player like Messi is all about skill so not really much help there or does it alos improve attributes like speed? Given the amount of steroid use in low level amateur rugby I wouldn't be at all surprised to see HGH being used systematically at the highest levels. Teams going off to use the cryo chamber in Poland sets alarm bells ringing for me. Whilst the increase in size and speed is no doubt in part down to the professional era and players doing daily speed and weight training sessions the increase in size of backs (in particular) is huge. Whilst Jonah Lomu would still be bigger than most today he was considered a 'freak' by Carling at the time and there are now many players who are getting close to him in terms of size whilst maintaining their speed. No doubt some are just naturally built that way but it is starting to become the norm. I hope I'm wrong on this but the cynicism of years watching cycling make me fear I might not be.

Lomu was a freak not due to his size, but due to his ability to run 100m in about 10.5 sec, which made him as fast as wingers who weighed about 6 stone less than him. I don't think even today there are backs as big and fast as Lomu was.

ddraver

Hmm, I'm with Pross here.

The biggest change to Rugby has been professionalism and with it, the ability to train 24/7. Remember the Brian Moore used to go back to work as a solicitor on Monday morning, the Underwood's went back to flying fighter jets etc...

Macaloon

"But as one of our contributors put it: would there have been a similar level of acceptance if Toure was a cyclist or an athlete?" http://www.channel4.com/programmes/disp ... ll-feature

And this belter from pre-history (2003): http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3333091.stm

A quick search found a mere handful of recreational busts since Rio's derisory 8 month ban. Hard to believe given the woefully extended careers of box-box donkeys.

Richmond Racer

ddraver wrote:

Hmm, I'm with Pross here.

The biggest change to Rugby has been professionalism and with it, the ability to train 24/7. Remember the Brian Moore used to go back to work as a solicitor on Monday morning, the Underwood's MUM went back to flying fighter jets etc...

FTFY

dougzz

chrisday wrote:

The old footie adage still holds true - "A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un"...

Messi is not big but I'm pretty sure he'd be the first name on any team sheet given the chance. But then I guess the Argentinian national side would contradict that.

chrisday

dougzz wrote:

chrisday wrote:

The old footie adage still holds true - "A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un"...

Messi is not big but I'm pretty sure he'd be the first name on any team sheet given the chance. But then I guess the Argentinian national side would contradict that.

Ah, don't go ruining my generalisations with bl00dy facts! Where's the fun in that?

skavanagh.bikeradar

This proves that we truly are in a virtual pub.

pollys_bott

Pross wrote:

Given the amount of steroid use in low level amateur rugby I wouldn't be at all surprised to see HGH being used systematically at the highest levels... Whilst the increase in size and speed is no doubt in part down to the professional era and players doing daily speed and weight training sessions the increase in size of backs (in particular) is huge. Whilst Jonah Lomu would still be bigger than most today he was considered a 'freak' by Carling at the time and there are now many players who are getting close to him in terms of size whilst maintaining their speed. No doubt some are just naturally built that way but it is starting to become the norm. I hope I'm wrong on this but the cynicism of years watching cycling make me fear I might not be.

+1

Maybe it's my eyesight, or coincidence, or both; but some of the Welsh backs in particular are ridiculously big and seem to have jaws a la Thunderbirds puppets... (thickening of the jaw bone being a consequence of growth hormone excess). Look at Phillips, Hook, Roberts; and, lest anyone think I'm being Celtic-ist, Chris Ashton, Dan Carter, any Tuilagi...

Allegedly, of course...

ddraver

Phillips, Hook and Roberts just look Welsh! No one can help them with such an affliction, it doesnt mean they re dopers! Rob Brydon looks the same, and I'd be very surprised if he's on HGH.

The Tuilagis look like any south sea Islanders

Dan Carter and Chris Ashton are small by Rugby standards

salsiccia1

ddraver wrote:

Phillips, Hook and Roberts just look Welsh! No one can help them with such an affliction, it doesnt mean they re dopers! Rob Brydon looks the same, and I'd be very surprised if he's on HGH.

The Tuilagis look like any south sea Islanders

Dan Carter and Chris Ashton are small by Rugby standards

What about Martin Johnson? I know he stoped playing a few years ago, but just look at that forehead...

And less it on the Taffs!

Monty Dog

Ah, the old chestnut "football is all about skill...no need for drugs" what a load of BS - you can be the most skilful player in the world, but if you run out of legs after 60 minutes, you're not much use.
What part of drugs allowing you to build strength, train harder and recover from injury faster isn't desirable in a professional footballer?