ID my vintage frame please...

Nick Fitt

Hi, I bought my track bike bike complete for the princely sum of £20.00. Since then i have used the same bars and stem but changed the grouppo over to Miche Primato (C2004). The saddle is a 2005 Ltd swallow.

At time of purchase, the bike was equipped with Campag record Hubs; Rear being a Route Super Champion Competition, high flange (with 1969 National Track Championship scrutineers sticker), the front a Fiamme Red Label, low flange.

I do not have any idea of the BB beyond it being a Campagnolo version marked with Dims only. I guess ITA thread? The cranks are/were by Williams. The stem is a 1" quill with Cinelli alloy bars.

I am really keen to ID the frame though. I am about to restore it and would like to know who the frame builder was/is. It has a hole for a break on the boss at the rear (could have been drilled any time), but otherwise dimensionally is a track bike; 11" floor to BB, steep angles etc.

Can anyone please help in ID'ing the frame or point me in the right direction from the photos below? There are no serial markings at all anywhere on the frame...

Thanks for reading

giropaul

I can't tell you who built it - and it will be a challenge as loads of builders made similar frames around then.

I do think that it's UK built, and from what I can see I guess the bracket is English, not ITA as you said. It certaily isn't the original bracket.

The interesting bit is the Williams cranks. I'm assuming that these are track (single shouldered) cranks that look just like the old Campag pista? In fact, Williams made track cranks and rings that were interchangeable with the old 151 Campag sets. In my experience, there were very few around, and most were provided for "known" riders by Williams - so it may be that the frame has an interesting past.

The seatpin seems to say 26.8 - which would suggest plain gauge 531 rather than double-butted. Some track frames. especially for stronger riders and sprinters used plain gauge for stiffness, so it doesn't necessarily mean that it was a cheaper frame.

Whereabouts did you get the bike (geographically)? If it was in the Midlands I have an (entirely random) idea of what the pedigree could be in terms of ownership).

I'd ignore the rear bridge drilling - someone may have drilled it after it ws made, but more likely that was what the builder had to hand when the frame was made. Is the front drilled? If it isn't it would support the evidence for it being a dedicated track frame, more than likely built to order for a trackie of the time. The lack of numbering etc would support that.

Nick Fitt

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback. I got the bike from Cheshire. I am certain it was a raced frame purely because of the wheels and the Marshall's sticker from Manchester, its faded now but I am certain it was dates 1969.

These are the cranks, I am quite certain when I put the Miche kit on to use the bike, the bottom bracket was replaced, no idea where the original went to justify the Campag belief other than the rest of the running kit was :-( ...unfortunately...

The bottom bracket shell has the initials 'EO' stamped inside a stamped flat diamond shape

giropaul

OK, the cranks are old steel cottered ones - I'd say much older than the frame. Not the ones I was thinking of then. The bracket must have been replaced with your new cranks the, it is a Campag one, but not a pista one but a Veloce or similar. They give a good track chainline - I've got the same on Campag cranks on one of my bikes.

If you got it in Cheshire I'd look at possible local builders like Frank Herety, Harry Hall (who other people built for) and the like. Whoever did build it took some trouble to do a tidy job. It's difficult, if not impossible sometimes to identify a builder from that time, because many "makes" had sub-contract builders building frames for them. This applied especially to track bikes, where sponsored and pro riders wanted to ride the track, but the sponsor didn't provide the frames, so someone would have been commissioned to make frames to be badged up.
The key distinguishing feature on your frame is the design of the top eyes. Someone may recognise these.

Nick Fitt

Thanks again. The stamping of EO on the BB shell has been linked to Geoffrey butler in Croydon... I hjaver emailed them with pics and Ill have to wait and see. Thanks very much for your help once more.

Velonutter

Nick Fitt wrote:

Thanks again. The stamping of EO on the BB shell has been linked to Geoffrey butler in Croydon... I hjaver emailed them with pics and Ill have to wait and see. Thanks very much for your help once more.

Something about this frame made me think it might be a Geoffrey Butler Frame, the lugs and especially the wrap over of the rear forks at the seat tube shout to me Cliff Shrub (I think that was his surname).

In the early 70's GB started to make stocky stiff track frames, I know because I had two of them and have one now.

The new versions had oversized forks and rear stays and a lot had cut out BB's

Try contacting George Clare at GB, send him some photo's and I'm sure he will help.

Nick Fitt

Many thanks, I will, I have also finally got a bit of a break through from the guy I bought it from's dad, Its narrowed it down to either GB or Gazelle. Looking through old Gazelle catalogues, the frame could easily be a 1984 Gazelle Champion Mondial Baan (Dutch = track of course).

I cant find any pictures to post and do not know how to post .pdfs. if though anyone is interested, follow this link, then brochures, then 1984, bottom of page 13, http://jvs.webklik.nl/page/gazelle ;-)