Fancy dan hubs vs Novatec hubs

desweller

So, I have a friend who's looking at getting a pair of Gucci wheels for the summer. Given that most hubs that don't fall into the budget category utilise industrial cartridge bearings (apart from Shimano, of course), are there any real advantages to buying, say, American Classic or DT Swiss over the likes of Novatec? Forged hub shells vs CNC'd? Better heat treatment or bearing housing tolerances? Anything like that?

styxd

Ive got a set of wheels with hopes. Been running them for over a year through all weathers (probably about 8000miles) and the bearings are still perfectly smooth and the freehub works as it always has.

Also got a Novatec rear hub that I've used for about 3 weeks (over winter) and the bearings already feel rough and the freehub is a bit sticky. Same thing happened with the last set of cheap hubs I had.

So, more expensive hubs appear to last longer with less servicing.

I guess I could try some better quality bearings in the Novatec.

Chris Kings OTOH, I'm not sure what extra they offer over Hope?

ugo.santalucia

Depends on planned use... novatec are OK, but they don't like British Weather too much... Hope are made for British weather, but they cost twice as much...DT Swiss are actually very different in the freehub mechanism and they are very durable.
I normally advise Hope, Shimano, Campagnolo for those who can afford them and Novatec for the other builds. DT are too expensive and so are Chris King, Tune etc... Not sure they stand up to their own in a competitive market... Maybe it is just distributors greed, as they can be cheaper elsewhere

As for factory wheels, Mavic hubs are good, Shimano the same, the rest is hit and a miss

mattythemod

Am i right in thinking that Campag only make hubs in " Record guise " these days ?

ugo.santalucia

mattythemod wrote:

Am i right in thinking that Campag only make hubs in " Record guise " these days ?

what do you mean?

desweller

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Depends on planned use... novatec are OK, but they don't like British Weather too much... Hope are made for British weather, but they cost twice as much...DT Swiss are actually very different in the freehub mechanism and they are very durable.
I normally advise Hope, Shimano, Campagnolo for those who can afford them and Novatec for the other builds. DT are too expensive and so are Chris King, Tune etc... Not sure they stand up to their own in a competitive market... Maybe it is just distributors greed, as they can be cheaper elsewhere

As for factory wheels, Mavic hubs are good, Shimano the same, the rest is hit and a miss

Oh we're definitely going the handbuilt mix-n-match route. Probably involving Velocity A23 rims. The economics of CX Ray spokes convinced him to go the double-butted route.

I'll have another look at the Hope - not too enamoured with the whole CNC'd thing though; do Hope run a heat treat cycle to stress relieve the hub after machining? I like Shimano but not sure whether my friend will be able to keep on top of the regular servicing that's required; he could easily end up with knackered shells.

ugo.santalucia

DesWeller wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Depends on planned use... novatec are OK, but they don't like British Weather too much... Hope are made for British weather, but they cost twice as much...DT Swiss are actually very different in the freehub mechanism and they are very durable.
I normally advise Hope, Shimano, Campagnolo for those who can afford them and Novatec for the other builds. DT are too expensive and so are Chris King, Tune etc... Not sure they stand up to their own in a competitive market... Maybe it is just distributors greed, as they can be cheaper elsewhere

As for factory wheels, Mavic hubs are good, Shimano the same, the rest is hit and a miss

Oh we're definitely going the handbuilt mix-n-match route. Probably involving Velocity A23 rims. The economics of CX Ray spokes convinced him to go the double-butted route.

I'll have another look at the Hope - not too enamoured with the whole CNC'd thing though; do Hope run a heat treat cycle to stress relieve the hub after machining? I like Shimano but not sure whether my friend will be able to keep on top of the regular servicing that's required; he could easily end up with knackered shells.

You have rather bizarre fears... A vast proportion of bicycle components are CNC made and they are absolutely fine.
Shells and servicing? You mean bearings?

desweller

I just worry a bit where Hope is concerned; IIRC their hubs were prone to cracking a couple of years ago and I wondered how they got round it. Their customer service is great but I don't really want to be getting into that with hubs - massive hassle.

Yep I mean bearings.

ugo.santalucia

DesWeller wrote:

I just worry a bit where Hope is concerned; IIRC their hubs were prone to cracking a couple of years ago and I wondered how they got round it. Their customer service is great but I don't really want to be getting into that with hubs - massive hassle.

Yep I mean bearings.

You just need one imbecile that builds them radial at 1500 N to build a reputation for a fragile flange on the web... Would not give much attention to scaremongers

cycleclinic

I have been running hope's for years n my MTB and no cracking issues. that#s a sample of one. But it a sample of one that started the fear no doubt.

As for novatec's not like british weather I am not too sure. They use cartridge bearings which are easily replaced so its not a real worry. Also they do seem durable enough. Maybe CK hub are more durable but I can buy a lot of bearings and freehubs for the difference in price between novatecs and a CK or DT 240 hubs.

CNC'd hubs are not an issue. I think the shells on Miche RG2's and Cnc'd and they work great. Also hope hubs are no more designed for british wheather than novatec. they both use comaprable cartridge bearings. Hope hubs are good but they are a bit expensive. For the money that hope cost I would rather spend a bit more and use Dura ace or Campag record hubs for high end or spend less and use Miche or Novatec.

DT Swiss, CK, Tune are just too expensive for what they are. Alchemy Elf and Orc hubs are the only boutique hubs that I would like to try. The geometry on those is simply a wheel builder dream. I must import some to try.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have been running hope's for years n my MTB and no cracking issues. that#s a sample of one. But it a sample of one that started the fear no doubt.

As for novatec's not like british weather I am not too sure. They use cartridge bearings which are easily replaced so its not a real worry. Also they do seem durable enough. Maybe CK hub are more durable but I can buy a lot of bearings and freehubs for the difference in price between novatecs and a CK or DT 240 hubs.

CNC'd hubs are not an issue. I think the shells on Miche RG2's and Cnc'd and they work great. Also hope hubs are no more designed for british wheather than novatec. they both use comaprable cartridge bearings. Hope hubs are good but they are a bit expensive. For the money that hope cost I would rather spend a bit more and use Dura ace or Campag record hubs for high end or spend less and use Miche or Novatec.

DT Swiss, CK, Tune are just too expensive for what they are. Alchemy Elf and Orc hubs are the only boutique hubs that I would like to try. The geometry on those is simply a wheel builder dream. I must import some to try.

It is not the bearings, it is the design of the caps and how good they are to keep the weather out. I have some Novatec cross hubs which are excellent at that, but the road ones are less so. Hope take advantage of their baste experience in MTB for their hubs design.

I agree, bearings are cheap to replace, but if not DIY, they are not that cheap after all...

JonEdwards

Front hubs aren't rocket science. They're a stick, 2 bearings and a shell. All you're paying for on an expensive front hub is finish quality/pretty colours. (and it matching the back!)

My experience of "fancy dan" hubs is mostly MTB related.
I've got loads of Hope hubs. They're simple and they work and they're not *too* expensive. Mechanically, the design is inelegant - they're effectively the same as an old skool freewheel hub, and it's relatively easy to snap teh axle on them (12mm throughbolt Pro2s were notorious for this - part of the reason for the Pro2 Evo) - not really an issue for road, mind. There's a lot of seal drag, and despite that, they're not actually all that well sealed! (The pawl cavity gets filthy very quickly). That said, they do just work, are easy and quick to service, and if you do break one, Hope's CS is legendary. Not especially light.

DT Swiss. Lovely. Spin really nicely, bombproof ratchet setup, and I've literally not had to touch my SOs set in 4ish years (and they were S/hand). My next mtb wheels will probably have DT hubs. Light.

American Classic. Cunning freehub design fully disconnects the pawls when you stop pedalling, so they spin for ever. But it needs more TLC than normal, or the pawl plate & spring wear out. Lighter.

King. Expensive, not especially light, freehub is a bit draggy, corrode a bit too easily if you use them in winter. The only hub I've had to fix (not mine) on a trailside. But they're beautifully made, look fantastic and come in loads of pretty colours!

Monty Dog

I've had no problem with Novatecs, they're pretty good for the money, particularly if buy direct from the Far East. Bearings are cheap and easy to replace too - just replaced some in a P-X hub that have had 3 years of all-year riding - £1.99 each. Superstar are Novatec too.
I have Record and AM Classic too - never quite felt the need to pay the premium for the likes of DT

on-yer-bike

mattythemod wrote:

Am i right in thinking that Campag only make hubs in " Record guise " these days ?

Campag hubs are only available as Record 32 spoke front and back. The more expensive wheels have servicable 'Record' bearings the cheaper ones have cartridge bearings along with a cheaper freehub. I imagine that Campag only make this one hub so that people buy their wheels all of which have a lot less spokes than 32. The Record hubs are aimed at riders who want strong, low profile wheels for the Spring Classics and such like.

desweller

JonEdwards wrote:

Front hubs aren't rocket science. They're a stick, 2 bearings and a shell. All you're paying for on an expensive front hub is finish quality/pretty colours. (and it matching the back!)

DT Swiss. Lovely. Spin really nicely, bombproof ratchet setup, and I've literally not had to touch my SOs set in 4ish years (and they were S/hand). My next mtb wheels will probably have DT hubs. Light.

American Classic. Cunning freehub design fully disconnects the pawls when you stop pedalling, so they spin for ever. But it needs more TLC than normal, or the pawl plate & spring wear out. Lighter.

The American Classic unit looks like it's using a friction clutch plate with the freehub body for the pawl engagement? Eww if so.

Loving the DT Swiss splined face ratchet. The endcap on the freehub side looks like it completely conceals the bearing from the outside world (my pet peeve with my Novatec hub).

smidsy

I have both Novatec on my Ambrosio Handbuilts and AC on my 420 Aero wheels.

The AC have cam operated pawls so they all engage together (not on individual springs) and they are nice and light. But as stated they do require more TLC due to their pencil thin hub and consequently smaller bearings. And yes my pawl plate needed changing after only 1000 miles.

The Novatec seem nice enough, although I have only done about 500 miles on them so far. They are obviously heavier units but as they are in the centre of the wheel (obvious I know) that does not seem that noticeable.

Essentially they do the same thing and I can not say I have noticed any great benefit to the AC design.

ugo.santalucia

smidsy wrote:

I have both Novatec on my Ambrosio Handbuilts and AC on my 420 Aero wheels.

The AC have cam operated pawls so they all engage together (not on individual springs) and they are nice and light. But as stated they do require more TLC due to their pencil thin hub and consequently smaller bearings. And yes my pawl plate needed changing after only 1000 miles.

The Novatec seem nice enough, although I have only done about 500 miles on them so far. They are obviously heavier units but as they are in the centre of the wheel (obvious I know) that does not seem that noticeable.

Essentially they do the same thing and I can not say I have noticed any great benefit to the AC design.

All hubs are the same to start... it's what they do after 1000 or 10,000 miles that discriminate them. The best I have owned were Dt swiss 240... I think I have done 10,000 miles on them, then sold the wheels and they were virtually as good as new.
I also have some 1980s Campagnolo, which I have hardly serviced at all over the years... I take for granted they will last forever... they work on a freewheel, so there is really nothing that can go wrong

mattythemod

on-yer-bike wrote:

mattythemod wrote:

Am i right in thinking that Campag only make hubs in " Record guise " these days ?

Campag hubs are only available as Record 32 spoke front and back. The more expensive wheels have servicable 'Record' bearings the cheaper ones have cartridge bearings along with a cheaper freehub. I imagine that Campag only make this one hub so that people buy their wheels all of which have a lot less spokes than 32. The Record hubs are aimed at riders who want strong, low profile wheels for the Spring Classics and such like.

Thats what i thought , thanks for the clarafication .

cycleclinic

Well after 6000 miles my Miche RG2 hubs are still perfect. My wife now has them and commutes on them. I have another set in my winter bike, perfect all weather hubs.

I also have a set of campag record hubs from the late 70's or early 80's on my Alan which I use for time trails. Still buttery smooth. Mileage of these is unknown.

My novatec hubs are on my summer race bike that I will take racing so will not see much wet weather. I think they will be fine for that.

The only thing I don't like about DT Swiss 240 apart from the price is the flange seperation, it is just a bit shorter than most leaving a less stiff wheel. Apart from that the freehub mechanism they have is superb.

For hubs though Shimano Dura ace 7800/7900 or campag record are hard to beat if you have the budget for them.

desweller

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well after 6000 miles my Miche RG2 hubs are still perfect. My wife now has them and commutes on them. I have another set in my winter bike, perfect all weather hubs.

I also have a set of campag record hubs from the late 70's or early 80's on my Alan which I use for time trails. Still buttery smooth. Mileage of these is unknown.

My novatec hubs are on my summer race bike that I will take racing so will not see much wet weather. I think they will be fine for that.

The only thing I don't like about DT Swiss 240 apart from the price is the flange seperation, it is just a bit shorter than most leaving a less stiff wheel. Apart from that the freehub mechanism they have is superb.

For hubs though Shimano Dura ace 7800/7900 or campag record are hard to beat if you have the budget for them.

Thanks!

Don't suppose you've got any info about the freehub end cap sealing and the ratchet mechanism? I've got some good details on the others but the Miche doesn't seem to have been taken apart by many peopl (maybe that's a good thing!).

ugo.santalucia

DesWeller wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well after 6000 miles my Miche RG2 hubs are still perfect. My wife now has them and commutes on them. I have another set in my winter bike, perfect all weather hubs.

I also have a set of campag record hubs from the late 70's or early 80's on my Alan which I use for time trails. Still buttery smooth. Mileage of these is unknown.

My novatec hubs are on my summer race bike that I will take racing so will not see much wet weather. I think they will be fine for that.

The only thing I don't like about DT Swiss 240 apart from the price is the flange seperation, it is just a bit shorter than most leaving a less stiff wheel. Apart from that the freehub mechanism they have is superb.

For hubs though Shimano Dura ace 7800/7900 or campag record are hard to beat if you have the budget for them.

Thanks!

Don't suppose you've got any info about the freehub end cap sealing and the ratchet mechanism? I've got some good details on the others but the Miche doesn't seem to have been taken apart by many peopl (maybe that's a good thing!).

They have no rubber seal on the freehub, not sure that is a problem, as I have had hubs with the seal which failed much earlier than those without. The actual bearing seal seem to make the difference

mhk1058

thecycleclinic wrote:

As for novatec's not like british weather I am not too sure. They use cartridge bearings which are easily replaced so its not a real worry. Also they do seem durable enough. Maybe CK hub are more durable but I can buy a lot of bearings and freehubs for the difference in price between novatecs and a CK or DT 240 hubs.

I think thecycleclinic sums it it up here. People talk about hubs and how good they are when really they should be talking about the bearings, it's the bearings that make the hub what it is in terms of it's ability to withstand weather, rotate freely and limit friction. The rest is just strength, appearance and weight - the more metal you dare machine off it the more you can charge!

I have fulcrum racing 5's on my winter bike, the bearings lasted about 2k miles. Replaced all the wheel and freehub bearings with SKF bearings at £3-£4 each and still going strong 6k miles later after the roughest wettest roads South Wales can throw at them. Buy fancy hubs and they have proprietary bearings which are no better than SKF or FAG just that they've had a few thou' machined off them so you have to go to the hub manufacturer for a very expensive replacement.

Lot to be said for cheaper hubs and replacing the bearings with decent ones.

Having said that, expensive hubs do look a lot nicer :P

LegendLust

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Depends on planned use... novatec are OK, but they don't like British Weather too much... Hope are made for British weather, but they cost twice as much...DT Swiss are actually very different in the freehub mechanism and they are very durable.
I normally advise Hope, Shimano, Campagnolo for those who can afford them and Novatec for the other builds. DT are too expensive and so are Chris King, Tune etc... Not sure they stand up to their own in a competitive market... Maybe it is just distributors greed, as they can be cheaper elsewhere

As for factory wheels, Mavic hubs are good, Shimano the same, the rest is hit and a miss

Oh we're definitely going the handbuilt mix-n-match route. Probably involving Velocity A23 rims. The economics of CX Ray spokes convinced him to go the double-butted route.

I'll have another look at the Hope - not too enamoured with the whole CNC'd thing though; do Hope run a heat treat cycle to stress relieve the hub after machining? I like Shimano but not sure whether my friend will be able to keep on top of the regular servicing that's required; he could easily end up with knackered shells.

You have rather bizarre fears... A vast proportion of bicycle components are CNC made and they are absolutely fine.
Shells and servicing? You mean bearings?

Differs slightly from another of your recent posts "The all idea behind CNC machining is to produce sub-standard parts."

ugo.santalucia

LegendLust wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Depends on planned use... novatec are OK, but they don't like British Weather too much... Hope are made for British weather, but they cost twice as much...DT Swiss are actually very different in the freehub mechanism and they are very durable.
I normally advise Hope, Shimano, Campagnolo for those who can afford them and Novatec for the other builds. DT are too expensive and so are Chris King, Tune etc... Not sure they stand up to their own in a competitive market... Maybe it is just distributors greed, as they can be cheaper elsewhere

As for factory wheels, Mavic hubs are good, Shimano the same, the rest is hit and a miss

Oh we're definitely going the handbuilt mix-n-match route. Probably involving Velocity A23 rims. The economics of CX Ray spokes convinced him to go the double-butted route.

I'll have another look at the Hope - not too enamoured with the whole CNC'd thing though; do Hope run a heat treat cycle to stress relieve the hub after machining? I like Shimano but not sure whether my friend will be able to keep on top of the regular servicing that's required; he could easily end up with knackered shells.

You have rather bizarre fears... A vast proportion of bicycle components are CNC made and they are absolutely fine.
Shells and servicing? You mean bearings?

Differs slightly from another of your recent posts "The all idea behind CNC machining is to produce sub-standard parts."

Yep... changing my mind on this... like for like CNC Vs forged... CNC is worse. Then many parts are forged or stamped and then machined, which is perfectly fine. Problem is when they are CNC machined straight from a billet of aluminium without any treatment... that produces sub standard parts. The problem becomes evident when you machine the hell out of the billet to make them lighter and lighter

cycleclinic

The miche hubs use a ratchet and paul systems like Hope. Freehub is alloy. The shell is cnc'd but heat treated 2014 alloy or something like that. Flange seperation on the rear is 55mm, flanges have no cut outs. Bearings are 6001 front and rear and 6901 in the freehub. The sealing seems good enough. I have riden through many hub high or deeper floods with these hubs and the bearings are still smooth.

Miche don't get failures really with the hubs I have lost count of how many I have sold and not one call about poor bearing life. That says something I think.

There are a number of Novatec hubs. The A171/F172 are pretty durable in all weathers (miche a bit better though) and then there is the A291/F482 which are fine in the dry. Saying my novatec hubs don't last long without stating the model does not help anyone much.

Still if you have the coin Campag record and Dura Ace 9000 are simply perfect.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

The miche hubs use a ratchet and paul systems like Hope. Freehub is alloy. The shell is cnc'd but heat treated 2014 alloy or something like that. Flange seperation on the rear is 55mm, flanges have no cut outs. Bearings are 6001 front and rear and 6901 in the freehub. The sealing seems good enough. I have riden through many hub high or deeper floods with these hubs and the bearings are still smooth.

Miche don't get failures really with the hubs I have lost count of how many I have sold and not one call about poor bearing life. That says something I think.

There are a number of Novatec hubs. The A171/F172 are pretty durable in all weathers (miche a bit better though) and then there is the A291/F482 which are fine in the dry. Saying my novatec hubs don't last long without stating the model does not help anyone much.

Still if you have the coin Campag record and Dura Ace 9000 are simply perfect.

+1

rolf_f

mhk1058 wrote:

I have fulcrum racing 5's on my winter bike, the bearings lasted about 2k miles. Replaced all the wheel and freehub bearings with SKF bearings at £3-£4 each and still going strong 6k miles later after the roughest wettest roads South Wales can throw at them. Buy fancy hubs and they have proprietary bearings which are no better than SKF or FAG just that they've had a few thou' machined off them so you have to go to the hub manufacturer for a very expensive replacement.

Maybe you were unlucky - my winter wheels, Khamsins (ie same bearings as Fulcrum 5) lasted at least 12,000 miles in all weathers (wheel and freehub) before I needed to replace them.

And you are contradicting yourself a bit - Fulcrum hubs are effectively 'fancy hubs' - they just keep them to the standard sizes (probably Campagnolo realise that most people never change the wheel bearings anyway so it isn't worth making them odd sizes unlike the bottom bracket bearings!).

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

(probably Campagnolo realise that most people never change the wheel bearings anyway so it isn't worth making them odd sizes unlike the bottom bracket bearings!).

mhk1058

Maybe you were unlucky - my winter wheels, Khamsins (ie same bearings as Fulcrum 5) lasted at least 12,000 miles in all weathers (wheel and freehub) before I needed to replace them.

And you are contradicting yourself a bit - Fulcrum hubs are effectively 'fancy hubs' - they just keep them to the standard sizes (probably Campagnolo realise that most people never change the wheel bearings anyway so it isn't worth making them odd sizes unlike the bottom bracket bearings!).

Well, maybe you were lucky - I doubt many bearings would last that long but I suppose it depends on a lot of variables, rain, grit, hills, rider weight etc etc. The bearings that came out were were of unidentifiable origin ie probably cheap.

Also, not sure how I contradicted myself - I wouldn't call the hubs of a £180 wheelset 'fancy' - I assumed fancy meant Royce, CK, Tune, Hope etc. A decent set of Novatec hubs alone wouldn't be far short of that.

rolf_f

mhk1058 wrote:

Maybe you were unlucky - my winter wheels, Khamsins (ie same bearings as Fulcrum 5) lasted at least 12,000 miles in all weathers (wheel and freehub) before I needed to replace them.

And you are contradicting yourself a bit - Fulcrum hubs are effectively 'fancy hubs' - they just keep them to the standard sizes (probably Campagnolo realise that most people never change the wheel bearings anyway so it isn't worth making them odd sizes unlike the bottom bracket bearings!).

Well, maybe you were lucky - I doubt many bearings would last that long but I suppose it depends on a lot of variables, rain, grit, hills, rider weight etc etc. The bearings that came out were were of unidentifiable origin ie probably cheap.

Also, not sure how I contradicted myself - I wouldn't call the hubs of a £180 wheelset 'fancy' - I assumed fancy meant Royce, CK, Tune, Hope etc. A decent set of Novatec hubs alone wouldn't be far short of that.

I don't know - I'm not sure that 12,000 miles or so is impressively long really. I'd be a bit irritated if they didn't last that long. People seem to have very low expectations these days!

As for 'fancy' hubs - what I was getting at is that the Fulcrum hubs come under the heading of proprietary wheelsets of the sort that can be assumed to be deliberately engineered not to use generic components (eg spokes, rims etc). I would assume (perhaps wrongly!) that the sorts of hubs you mention are exactly the sort that wouldn't have specific, non standard wheelbearings.

mhk1058

Rolf F wrote:

mhk1058 wrote:

Maybe you were unlucky - my winter wheels, Khamsins (ie same bearings as Fulcrum 5) lasted at least 12,000 miles in all weathers (wheel and freehub) before I needed to replace them.

And you are contradicting yourself a bit - Fulcrum hubs are effectively 'fancy hubs' - they just keep them to the standard sizes (probably Campagnolo realise that most people never change the wheel bearings anyway so it isn't worth making them odd sizes unlike the bottom bracket bearings!).

Well, maybe you were lucky - I doubt many bearings would last that long but I suppose it depends on a lot of variables, rain, grit, hills, rider weight etc etc. The bearings that came out were were of unidentifiable origin ie probably cheap.

Also, not sure how I contradicted myself - I wouldn't call the hubs of a £180 wheelset 'fancy' - I assumed fancy meant Royce, CK, Tune, Hope etc. A decent set of Novatec hubs alone wouldn't be far short of that.

I don't know - I'm not sure that 12,000 miles or so is impressively long really. I'd be a bit irritated if they didn't last that long. People seem to have very low expectations these days!

As for 'fancy' hubs - what I was getting at is that the Fulcrum hubs come under the heading of proprietary wheelsets of the sort that can be assumed to be deliberately engineered not to use generic components (eg spokes, rims etc). I would assume (perhaps wrongly!) that the sorts of hubs you mention are exactly the sort that wouldn't have specific, non standard wheelbearings.

I know for sure that Tune have for a long time used their own bearing size.