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Band 5 points for ALL week day ccts races

mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
edited January 2013 in Amateur race
I dont think this has been discussed before?

Apparently, there will be no Nat B weekday cct races for this coming season, its caused a big hoohah down in the s/w - as many elites used the 30pts and small fields to keep their top shelf licences.
Certainly a few 3rds have become 2nds by finish out the bac, doing these races, couldnt get enough pts in the 3/4 :oops:
Also, the feeling is, that this will reduce race numbers, im non plussed really - can see both sides but elite should mean exactly that.
What do other riders/regions feel about this change - good or bad ?

Posts

  • DavidJBDavidJB Posts: 2,019
    Looks that way from the BC events website and a recent win for a friend of mine in an e/1/2 where he got 10 points.

    I was hoping to get 1st cat this year but looks like that wont be happening unless I want to race 3x a week. Thanks BC you're as in touch as ever.
  • jibberjimjibberjim Posts: 2,810
    DavidJB wrote:
    Looks that way from the BC events website and a recent win for a friend of mine in an e/1/2 where he got 10 points.

    Well it's still winter, and winter was band 5 only already.
    DavidJB wrote:
    I was hoping to get 1st cat this year but looks like that wont be happening unless I want to race 3x a week. Thanks BC you're as in touch as ever.

    That's not the point ot the category system, it's about getting fair races.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • DavidJBDavidJB Posts: 2,019
    jibberjim wrote:
    DavidJB wrote:
    Looks that way from the BC events website and a recent win for a friend of mine in an e/1/2 where he got 10 points.

    Well it's still winter, and winter was band 5 only already.
    DavidJB wrote:
    I was hoping to get 1st cat this year but looks like that wont be happening unless I want to race 3x a week. Thanks BC you're as in touch as ever.

    That's not the point to the category system, it's about getting fair races.

    Looking ahead to a couple of summer series on BC website the set-up appears to be the same.

    Yes it is about getting fair races. You'll be getting a shed load of 2nd cats that should be 1st cats entering 2/3/4 road races for the 30 points and being in 2nd cat for longer than the should be meaning any 3/4 cats that want to road race will get chewed up and spat out instantly. All this while the number of road races seems to be dwindling.

    If the system isn't broken then don't try to fix it.
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    Fair races eh? messing around with pts is just daft - why should a weekend race that due to weather/event clash whatever, has 15 riders in it, attract treble the pts that a week day race with a full field would?
    they ve done nothing about the lack of RR opportunities, nothing about novice race training, they focus entirely on the top end, the grass roots get the crumbs.

    BC yet again, show how out of touch they have become.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    Wind your necks in, it's not about 2nd cats let alone 3rd cats. Nobody cares about them enough to make any decisions at BC that matter. And it's not about anywhere in the country but London and the SE.

    It's about elites getting 200 of their 300 points by doing three weekday crits a week. Not real elites, I might add, just people who race a lot. Sub-elites compared to actual elites. This is embarrassing to BC as they have a shedload of so-called elites in London who would suffer badly in an elite race anywhere else in the country. So the intention is to move them down to 1st cat again (or 2nd) -- a category that BC also doesn't care about, given that the National C race is still completely on hold.
  • maryka wrote:
    Wind your necks in, it's not about 2nd cats let alone 3rd cats. Nobody cares about them enough to make any decisions at BC that matter. And it's not about anywhere in the country but London and the SE.

    It's about elites getting 200 of their 300 points by doing three weekday crits a week. Not real elites, I might add, just people who race a lot. Sub-elites compared to actual elites. This is embarrassing to BC as they have a shedload of so-called elites in London who would suffer badly in an elite race anywhere else in the country. So the intention is to move them down to 1st cat again (or 2nd) -- a category that BC also doesn't care about, given that the National C race is still completely on hold.

    True. How anyone at BC could think it sensible to have 30 points for a chipper crit win yet the points for stage races are completely disproportionate. It' about time this happened. Points need to be earned, not just expected. It isn't a right for everyone to become a 2nd, 1st or Elite category, it needs to be earned.
  • DavidJBDavidJB Posts: 2,019
    maryka wrote:
    Wind your necks in, it's not about 2nd cats let alone 3rd cats. Nobody cares about them enough to make any decisions at BC that matter. And it's not about anywhere in the country but London and the SE.

    It's about elites getting 200 of their 300 points by doing three weekday crits a week. Not real elites, I might add, just people who race a lot. Sub-elites compared to actual elites. This is embarrassing to BC as they have a shedload of so-called elites in London who would suffer badly in an elite race anywhere else in the country. So the intention is to move them down to 1st cat again (or 2nd) -- a category that BC also doesn't care about, given that the National C race is still completely on hold.

    So increase the points needed to become and maintain being an elite. Its not rocket science and doesn't fk up the middle tier of amateur racing.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    DavidJB wrote:
    maryka wrote:
    Wind your necks in, it's not about 2nd cats let alone 3rd cats. Nobody cares about them enough to make any decisions at BC that matter. And it's not about anywhere in the country but London and the SE.

    It's about elites getting 200 of their 300 points by doing three weekday crits a week. Not real elites, I might add, just people who race a lot. Sub-elites compared to actual elites. This is embarrassing to BC as they have a shedload of so-called elites in London who would suffer badly in an elite race anywhere else in the country. So the intention is to move them down to 1st cat again (or 2nd) -- a category that BC also doesn't care about, given that the National C race is still completely on hold.

    So increase the points needed to become and maintain being an elite. Its not rocket science and doesn't fk up the middle tier of amateur racing.

    Don't know where you're located but your regional AGM is probably in September like all the others... go and make your voice heard! Better yet, email your regional reps your thoughts and ask them to explain why this decision was made, why the points required for elites isn't higher, etc.. As always, whinging on BR forum about BC pretty much means no real action will happen. Go through the proper channels.
    DavidJB wrote:
    Yes it is about getting fair races. You'll be getting a shed load of 2nd cats that should be 1st cats entering 2/3/4 road races for the 30 points and being in 2nd cat for longer than the should be meaning any 3/4 cats that want to road race will get chewed up and spat out instantly. All this while the number of road races seems to be dwindling.
    I do hope you and your club are involved in promoting these road races that seem to be dwindling? If not, you're not part of the solution, you're part of the whinging majority who take more than they give back to the sport.
  • DavidJBDavidJB Posts: 2,019
    edited January 2013
    maryka wrote:
    DavidJB wrote:
    maryka wrote:
    Wind your necks in, it's not about 2nd cats let alone 3rd cats. Nobody cares about them enough to make any decisions at BC that matter. And it's not about anywhere in the country but London and the SE.

    It's about elites getting 200 of their 300 points by doing three weekday crits a week. Not real elites, I might add, just people who race a lot. Sub-elites compared to actual elites. This is embarrassing to BC as they have a shedload of so-called elites in London who would suffer badly in an elite race anywhere else in the country. So the intention is to move them down to 1st cat again (or 2nd) -- a category that BC also doesn't care about, given that the National C race is still completely on hold.

    So increase the points needed to become and maintain being an elite. Its not rocket science and doesn't fk up the middle tier of amateur racing.

    Don't know where you're located but your regional AGM is probably in September like all the others... go and make your voice heard! Better yet, email your regional reps your thoughts and ask them to explain why this decision was made, why the points required for elites isn't higher, etc.. As always, whinging on BR forum about BC pretty much means no real action will happen. Go through the proper channels.
    DavidJB wrote:
    Yes it is about getting fair races. You'll be getting a shed load of 2nd cats that should be 1st cats entering 2/3/4 road races for the 30 points and being in 2nd cat for longer than the should be meaning any 3/4 cats that want to road race will get chewed up and spat out instantly. All this while the number of road races seems to be dwindling.
    I do hope you and your club are involved in promoting these road races that seem to be dwindling? If not, you're not part of the solution, you're part of the whinging majority who take more than they give back to the sport.

    I shall be attending this year, no doubt about that. By the time I found out about the stupid points change rule that was proposed for 3rd cats it was too late last year.

    And no I'm not involved in organising a race right now but I will be in the future when I get a bit more time and experience. I'm not 'whinging' either...I'm stating an opinion and using a discussion board for, god-forbid, a discussion. I am fully aware posting on a message board doesn't get your opinion heard by the policy makers so will be making my feelings heard by the regional director. Until then I suggest we continue to have a mature debate because forums are for more than looking at each others bike porn and ogling girls in lycra.
  • As Maryka says, it's all about the top-end (having too many people holding an "Elite" licence). Whether that has a negative effect on racing as a 2nd Cat, who knows? We'll know in a year or two. If you're really good, you should be able to make it to 1st Cat anyway. If you're not, then I'd suggest just concentrating on winning as much as possible (that's my plan!) :)

    For what it's worth, and whether or you not agree with the reasoning, I asked about the change and got this response from British Cycling:
    There are a variety of reasons we brought in the changes. Consider that a National B road race of <120km gets Band 3 points. That means that a 110km hilly Nat B road race (taking about 2.5 – 3hrs to race) will get the same number of points as a 50 minute thrash round a flat circuit. Hardly a fair balance or a fair representation of the countries cyclists wouldn’t you agree?

    This move means that crit races can concentrate on putting on the races that matter to that region (eg, there might be a dearth of 2/3/4 races in that area) without the need to “compete” for points with other circuits and the riders get a good training race without the danger that they’ll end up as “Elite” riders solely from midweek crits (which obviously is not what we want).

    As I say, the change only applies to weeknight crits – weekend ones will still get full points as normal. Town centre crits also remain unaffected. The points and ranking system will never be perfect for everyone but by making this change, we’re benefitting the majority of riders and event organisers who have indicated that they would like to see this – we don’t make changes without good reason, we have to conduct research both before and after so if, at the end of 2013, this has not worked for whatever reason, we will look to make any amendments.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    maryka wrote:
    Don't know where you're located but your regional AGM is probably in September like all the others... go and make your voice heard! Better yet, email your regional reps your thoughts and ask them to explain why this decision was made, why the points required for elites isn't higher, etc.. As always, whinging on BR forum about BC pretty much means no real action will happen. Go through the proper channels.

    As far as im aware its national thing and effects all regions for 2013

    Nothing was mentioned at our regional AGM last year.

    My concern would be knock on effects to lower cats. not whether a guy get s to keep his elite or not.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    David, I wasn't having a go at you, and well done for getting more involved. A lot of people on forums (here and elsewhere) have lots of opinions and ideas but never get involved sharing them through the proper channels or actually making racing happen. Glad that's not you.

    There are lots of things at BC that need changing but sadly while they focus on elite men (to the detriment of cat 1/2/3/4 men and all women) things won't change very quickly. Most of that is because frankly the bigwigs at BC have no clue what it's like to race at those levels. Getting involved to put the pressure on for real change is the only way to change it.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    mamba80 wrote:
    maryka wrote:
    Don't know where you're located but your regional AGM is probably in September like all the others... go and make your voice heard! Better yet, email your regional reps your thoughts and ask them to explain why this decision was made, why the points required for elites isn't higher, etc.. As always, whinging on BR forum about BC pretty much means no real action will happen. Go through the proper channels.

    As far as im aware its national thing and effects all regions for 2013

    Nothing was mentioned at our regional AGM last year.

    My concern would be knock on effects to lower cats. not whether a guy get s to keep his elite or not.
    Came up at my regional AGM, not sure why not at yours?

    I don't think the knock on effect is necessarily bad -- we need National C (1/2/3) races so if there are more 1st cats due to there being fewer elites, and more 2nds because of that, then those lower races will benefit imo. What's the point of being a high level 2nd cat or 1st cat when all your local crits attract teams of elites trying to keep their points?
  • ju5t1nju5t1n Posts: 2,028
    The teams of Elites will still turn up, but now the points will only go to 10th rather than 15th place. So less chance for 2nds to pick up points. I think that next year there will be fewer 2nd Cats as a result of this change.
  • lyn1lyn1 Posts: 261
    DavidJB wrote:
    Looks that way from the BC events website and a recent win for a friend of mine in an e/1/2 where he got 10 points.
    I was hoping to get 1st cat this year but looks like that wont be happening unless I want to race 3x a week. Thanks BC you're as in touch as ever.

    Good move to pick that race :wink: . If he wanted 10 points at say, the Torquay Tour Series, he would have had to beat House, Williams, Backstedt, Clancy and loads more pros. If he wanted 10 points at the Tour of the Dengie Marshes Premier, he would need to beat Thwaites, Rowsell. McEvoy and Dempster (now all riding at Pro Conti level) plus Dean Downing and many other top pros.
    There are easy points and hard points, and unfortunately the system doesn’t differentiate between them too well.
  • fish156fish156 Posts: 496
    maryka wrote:
    There are lots of things at BC that need changing but sadly while they focus on elite men (to the detriment of cat 1/2/3/4 men and all women) things won't change very quickly.
    No, you're wrong Maryka. Well according to BC you are. My membership renewal arrived in today's post and specifically says "Subscriptions also contribute to the grass roots development of cycling in schools and clubs, ensuring a better future for cyclists everywhere."

    That'll be £100 please - £66 gold membership, £34 race licence.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    fish156 wrote:
    maryka wrote:
    There are lots of things at BC that need changing but sadly while they focus on elite men (to the detriment of cat 1/2/3/4 men and all women) things won't change very quickly.
    No, you're wrong Maryka. Well according to BC you are. My membership renewal arrived in today's post and specifically says "Subscriptions also contribute to the grass roots development of cycling in schools and clubs, ensuring a better future for cyclists everywhere."

    That'll be £100 please - £66 gold membership, £34 race licence.
    :lol: Indeed I am. Forgot that the Sky Rides and Breeze Rides are the next most important thing at BC behind Olympic track medals, Team Sky and elite men's conti teams, in that order.

    Bog standard amateurs and women at all levels (except Breeze level) come far far below.
  • fish156fish156 Posts: 496
    Let's hope we never forget to appreciate those individuals that keep "grass roots" racing alive despite any lack of support from BC.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    Though these changes dont effect me directly, i despair at how bc go about changes, some tech committee, a agm (maybe) and then boom - job done, no real consult of the membership.
    Personally, if i didnt race, i d never have anything to do with them, id join CTC, they seem to do a far better job with their membership.
    BC have done nothing for youth development down here - unless your a boy and your parent/s are in with BC.
    Maryka is correct re womens/girls racing - it just doesnt appear on their radar.

    oh and i have told them this as well, both directly and via their recent survey.
  • Want to make sure the riders ability matches their license - split the points so you have different ranks in crits, track and road. That way a good crit rider that isn't so great on the road doesn't end up with a 1st cat license and never finishing a road race, and a vice versa..

    Definitely shouldnt be 30pts for a midweek crit win when you only get 10/15pts for winning a stage in 234/E123 Stage Race.
  • I agree that the current points structure needs a look at, but the latest amendment is a total bag of poo.

    Now I've done mid week racing that has been lame and the easiest points in the world, however I have equally had some ofmy hardest races ever on a Thursday night. Same on the weekend's. Personally, I think the right short term fix would be to up the points at the top end and leave the rest of it alone. 500 points for an elite, but 250 points for a Nat A road win would sort the boys from men
    Long term, I think we need to have more than arbitrary rankings decided on nothing but a registration form. Certainly Nat A races demand prize funds etc. Maybe a similar structure to cross and box could decide a races categorisation. Toilets, showers, prize money a minimum for band 3 points both on week days and weekends. Races below that should be seen as what they are... Intro or training events. Boom.
    That said, the current changes won't matter a jot if folk still turn up to race. If they don't then BC, or more accurately the south regional council have spoilt it for everyone, based on the minorities need to see elites as elites.
  • i think it is good, there is alot of riders with elite licences that are not elite level, IMO 1st cats should be competitive in Premier calendars and or tour series, and elites should be the ones at the sharp end, as it is there is elites who couldn't even finish either of these. The problem is however they do it they will never please everyone, I don't think aiming to get to 1st cat should be an aim as it means you just point chase, i think aiming to top5 a nat b road race would be a better aim as you may well make it to 1st cat en-route but it would be more deserved and you would end up a better rider as you would have been racing harder races
  • Frankly, what does it matter?

    For the majority of club racers, points are just not the point of racing. A win or a podium place will always be just that, regardless of how many points BC decide to give out. We all know when we had a good race or a censored race and quite often, the points just don't do it justice either way.

    Race hard, race safe, enjoy the buzz and the points don't really matter that much do they?

    IMHO of course.....
  • petemadocpetemadoc Posts: 2,667
    Frankly, what does it matter?

    For the majority of club racers, points are just not the point of racing. A win or a podium place will always be just that, regardless of how many points BC decide to give out. We all know when we had a good race or a censored race and quite often, the points just don't do it justice either way.

    Race hard, race safe, enjoy the buzz and the points don't really matter that much do they?

    IMHO of course.....

    +1

    but I guess there must be people who point chase.
  • NapoleonDNapoleonD Posts: 18,632
    TLI for the win!
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