Lance Armstrong - which came first?

evidence11

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/video/2013/ ... _3242.html

sherer

I know there is doubt of Zulle but never knew he officially tested positive. What was he caught for ?

RichN95.

sherer wrote:

I know there is doubt of Zulle but never knew he officially tested positive. What was he caught for ?

He admitted to doping during the Festina affair.

sherer

RichN95 wrote:

sherer wrote:

I know there is doubt of Zulle but never knew he officially tested positive. What was he caught for ?

He admitted to doping during the Festina affair.

cheers, it was obvious must have just missed that bit

oldwelshman

greasedscotsman wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

ffs neither had armstrong !!

He was sanctioned. He was stripped of all of his results back to '98 and banned from professional cycling for life.

oldwelshman wrote:

the only ones I would "guess" were likely to be clean was evans, sastre and lemond.

What have you got on Wiggins then?

Nothing, but seems my follow up post which said " oops I forgot wiggo" was deleted ? :roll:

deejay

oldwelshman wrote:

Nothing, but seems my follow up post which said " oops I forgot wiggo" was deleted ? :roll:

Then "Edit" this into your OP. :roll:

deejay

nathancom wrote:

I am sure Indurain was as bad as Armstrong, They just got away with it as there was no test at the time. .

That is utter Bollox.
Indurain served his time as a Domestic and came through the ranks from being an athletic promising Junior.
Late in his career he met Ferrara to see what his new training involved but refused it.
Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

Edit :- 1994 Giro d'Italia EPO or not, with Berzin and Argentin knocking the shyte out of Indurain.

Armstrong arrived as the "Big I Am" and never had to do domestic riding (TOC and the joke that he would) but he believed all the Hype about him.
Then as World Champion he couldn't understand why nobody (allegedly) recognised him in 1994, so he set out to remedy that in anyway he could.

He became the "Most Sophisticated Professional DOPER in all Sport" (see the post above by "evidence 11")
When his team mates went elsewhere and still tried to use his system, they got detected and busted.
You can now try to List a long bunch of LA's ex Team mates who have been busted. (Nothing Fictional there)

andyp

deejay wrote:

That is utter Bollox.
Indurain served his time as a Domestic and came through the ranks from being an athletic promising Junior.
Late in his career he met Ferrara to see what his new training involved but refused it.
Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

This 'utter bollox' thing of which you speak? This is it ^.

deejay

andyp wrote:

deejay wrote:

That is utter Bollox.
Indurain served his time as a Domestic and came through the ranks from being an athletic promising Junior.
Late in his career he met Ferrara to see what his new training involved but refused it.
Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

This 'utter bollox' thing of which you speak? This is it ^.

FFS, you prove me wrong if you think you can redeem yourself, otherwise just keep playing with yourself.

Before the internet I followed the Indurain (a big man that could climb mountains) career and things were put in print that are not available now.
I defy you to produce something other than the "Hay fever" spray.

The Internet has arrived for all the couch people to express their Innuendo's, so I say "Prove me wrong"

deejay

evidence11 wrote:

timoid.

deejay wrote:

andyp wrote:

deejay wrote:

That is utter Bollox.
Indurain served his time as a Domestic and came through the ranks from being an athletic promising Junior.
Late in his career he met Ferrara to see what his new training involved but refused it.
Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

This 'utter bollox' thing of which you speak? This is it ^.

FFS, you prove me wrong if you think you can redeem yourself, otherwise just keep playing with yourself.

Before the internet I followed the Indurain (a big man that could climb mountains) career and things were put in print that are not available now.
I defy you to produce something other than the "Hay fever" spray.

The Internet has arrived for all the couch people to express their Innuendo's, so I say "Prove me wrong"

Old article, but this guy (Thomas Davy) testified under oath that Banesto used a team-wide system of doping

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/story/0 ... 08,00.html

timoid.

From said article:

Testifying under oath, Thomas Davy, who rode with Indurain in the Spanish team in 1995-96, claimed: "At Banesto there was a system of doping with medical supervision." Asked by the presiding judge Daniel Delegove if everyone in the team had used drugs, the Frenchman said hesitantly: "I don't know. I didn't go round all the rooms, but I think so."

andyp

deejay wrote:

FFS, you prove me wrong if you think you can redeem yourself, otherwise just keep playing with yourself.

Before the internet I followed the Indurain (a big man that could climb mountains) career and things were put in print that are not available now.
I defy you to produce something other than the "Hay fever" spray.

The Internet has arrived for all the couch people to express their Innuendo's, so I say "Prove me wrong"

You come across as a complete tool with your speed to resort to personal attack. May I insert your favourite emoticon here - :roll:

As Timoid has already posted, Thomas Davy testified under oath at the Festina trial that there was a systematic doping regime in place at Banesto when he rode for them. Indurain also worked extensively with Professor Conconi and Michele Ferrari, both of whom have subsequently been proven to have doped athletes in their care. Indurain spent his entire career riding for the same team, under the management of Eusebio Unzue who has, time and time again, used doping methods with his riders (with Valverde being the latest of a long line of examples). Finally, how did an 80kg 1m 90 cm tall rider become one of the most devastating climbers of his era, an era which we now know was one where the use of EPO, for which there was no test at the time, became endemic.

There is enough evidence for anyone with their critical faculties intact to think that Indurain was doped.

sherer

no real proof but again there are rumours that Big Mig had to get up at 1-2 in the morning and take a walk around because EPO thickens the blood and if you don't exercise then it can kill you in your sleep

deejay

andyp wrote:

There is enough evidence for anyone with their critical faculties intact to think that Indurain was doped.

Not for me yet, but then I've only been a Jury Foreman twice.

Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

1994 Giro d'Italia EPO or not, with Berzin and Argentin knocking the shyte out of Indurain.

This factual evidence is more valuable than any Hearsay evidence so carry on playing.

dennisn

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

conceptual_primate wrote:

Scotty-Gee wrote:

As an aside, shouldn't Delgado also have his name 'sullied' here?

Nope. He never failed a test.

Neither did LA for that matter. Are you an LA believer then?

shinyhelmut

deejay wrote:

andyp wrote:

There is enough evidence for anyone with their critical faculties intact to think that Indurain was doped.

Not for me yet, but then I've only been a Jury Foreman twice.

Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

1994 Giro d'Italia EPO or not, with Berzin and Argentin knocking the shyte out of Indurain.

This factual evidence is more valuable than any Hearsay evidence so carry on playing.

Well good for you. I would quite like a jury foreman as sympathetic as you should I ever end up in court.

Eddie72

deejay wrote:

andyp wrote:

There is enough evidence for anyone with their critical faculties intact to think that Indurain was doped.

Not for me yet, but then I've only been a Jury Foreman twice.

Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

1994 Giro d'Italia EPO or not, with Berzin and Argentin knocking the shyte out of Indurain.

This factual evidence is more valuable than any Hearsay evidence so carry on playing.

Indurain was a big rider of the generation when I was getting into cycling so I'd always like to believe he's clean, but I think it's increasingly clear he was part of the EPO era. I can't find the quote now but I'm sure a couple of years ago he came as close as you're likely to see to admitting it when he said something like "I took the tests and passed the controls, I don't think we should be looking back at what's happened in the past". Anyone else remember this?

deejay

ShinyHelmut wrote:

deejay wrote:

andyp wrote:

There is enough evidence for anyone with their critical faculties intact to think that Indurain was doped.

Not for me yet, but then I've only been a Jury Foreman twice.

Bjarne Riis showed Indurain what he was missing (EPO that is) in 1996 and Mig retired because of that lesson.
So at the end of the Indurain career you can see the effect of EPO or not.

1994 Giro d'Italia EPO or not, with Berzin and Argentin knocking the shyte out of Indurain.

This factual evidence is more valuable than any Hearsay evidence so carry on playing.

Well good for you. I would quite like a jury foreman as sympathetic as you should I ever end up in court.

On both occasions they were put down. (smilie = thumbs down)

Eddie72 wrote:

Indurain was a big rider of the generation when I was getting into cycling so I'd always like to believe he's clean, but I think it's increasingly clear he was part of the EPO era. I can't find the quote now but I'm sure a couple of years ago he came as close as you're likely to see to admitting it when he said something like "I took the tests and passed the controls, I don't think we should be looking back at what's happened in the past". Anyone else remember this?

I cannot put a lot of credence to that one.

Gardian wrote:

Testifying under oath, Thomas Davy, who rode with Indurain in the Spanish team in 1995-96, claimed: "At Banesto there was a system of doping with medical supervision." Asked by the presiding judge Daniel Delegove if everyone in the team had used drugs, the Frenchman said hesitantly: "I don't know. I didn't go round all the rooms, but I think so."

A lot different to the Texan with Betsy and then a whole hoard of people testifying under oath.

I repeat, You can now try to List a long bunch of LA's ex Team mates who have been busted.