First Race Concerns

theprawn

I'm having my first crack at racing on Saturday at the Cyclopark. I'm happy riding in a bunch, holding my line etc.

The only thing I haven't really done in a bunch is try to take on nutrition, I'm comfortable reaching for a bottle but not so sure about taking a gel, I've only really used gels in non drafting situations and suspect that I have a bit of weave going on when I take one.

As I type this I'm thinking for everyones sake I'd be best off just dropping to the back of the group I'm in to eat. The race is only 50k so I'll only need a couple of gels to get through.

Any tips on how best to do this? After reading lots about crashes in Cat 4 I don't want to be the muppet who causes a pile up if I can possibly help it.

Wish me luck.

jibberjim

Put the nutrition you need in your water bottle and just drink it.

theprawn

:oops: hadn't thought of that, good point jim.

if i like it, i'll buy a license get to cat 3 and then come and race and you.

chipperleenie

You should not really need gels in a 50k race, it will be over in about 1 hour 10 mins, so just one bottle should be plenty. It's not likely to be high temperatures either so you are not going to be losing tons of fluid.

jibberjim

theprawn wrote:

:oops: hadn't thought of that, good point jim.

Whilst I'm all for seperating fluid and nutrition in longer events, in short events where you don't absolutely need either (but they'll potentially help as the body holds more back if there are no calories seen coming) and eating can be difficult just drinking it is good.

I'm still undecided when I will return to racing - I might do it this year as I'm a Master now! I can go race a different set...

danowat

Would it really be necessary to feed in a 50k race?

maryka

Yes it is necessary to feed in a 50k or 90 min race! I need it anyway. Going full-throttle (which Cyclopark pretty much is) with repeated surges and high-intensity means I can't survive on water alone, nor would I want to.

What I do is take 1-2 shots of gel about 5 min before the start. My bottle is filled with another 150-200 calories as a weak mixture of water and maltodextrin (which has no flavour so I prefer it). The other option which I use for longer road races is to get a gel flask that holds about 5 shots of gel and put 3-4 in there mixed with a bit a water to make it runnier. It's much easier imo to take that out of my pocket one-handed, pop the top with my teeth, suck some back, pop the top and put it back than it is to take out a gel, rip it open, try to squeeze it into your mouth and put the sticky wrapper back in your pocket (and yes it has to go back in your pocket, I know the wannabes like to litter the way they see the pros doing, but it's a no-no for racing around here).

Here's the gel flask I'm talking about: http://www.hammernutritionuk.co.uk/prod ... ucts_id=85

theprawn

cheers guys, i'm just checking out circuit racing as part of training for a tri related event later in the year. bunging a few gels in bottle with some water and swishing it all up together sounds like it will work for me.

i'm going to be the classic first timer with all the gear and no idea. at least the bikes dirty.

lc1981

chipperleenie wrote:

You should not really need gels in a 50k race, it will be over in about 1 hour 10 mins, so just one bottle should be plenty. It's not likely to be high temperatures either so you are not going to be losing tons of fluid.

50 km in 70 minutes? Are 4th-category races really this fast?

theprawn

trust me, i'll loose lots of fluid.

i've found over 40k that taking a gel halfway helps (possibly psychological but who cares if it helps).

26mph average speed sounds quite high, then again I've never ridden the circuit or in a bunch in a race before.

Trev The Rev

maryka wrote:

Yes it is necessary to feed in a 50k or 90 min race! I need it anyway. Going full-throttle (which Cyclopark pretty much is) with repeated surges and high-intensity means I can't survive on water alone, nor would I want to.

What I do is take 1-2 shots of gel about 5 min before the start. My bottle is filled with another 150-200 calories as a weak mixture of water and maltodextrin (which has no flavour so I prefer it). The other option which I use for longer road races is to get a gel flask that holds about 5 shots of gel and put 3-4 in there mixed with a bit a water to make it runnier. It's much easier imo to take that out of my pocket one-handed, pop the top with my teeth, suck some back, pop the top and put it back than it is to take out a gel, rip it open, try to squeeze it into your mouth and put the sticky wrapper back in your pocket (and yes it has to go back in your pocket, I know the wannabes like to litter the way they see the pros doing, but it's a no-no for racing around here).

Here's the gel flask I'm talking about: http://www.hammernutritionuk.co.uk/prod ... ucts_id=85

I don't think there is any evidence carbohydrate feeding helps performance in an event lasting less than 2 hours and even then the subjects tested would have fasted for 12 hours, which is something no rational person would do before a race.

Even Dr Andrew Coggan, and he did some of the most quoted tests and is generally accepted to be an expert on these matters, when pressed eventually agreed the 2 hour mark.

You do not need gels, bars or sports drinks for a race lasting only 90 minutes, they don't help performance.

maryka

Off-topic, but I've just discovered the "Friend" and "Foe" feature to hide trolling posts. Click on the (repeated) offender's name, click Foe, voila their posts disappear and you don't have to read them.

Trev The Rev

maryka wrote:

Off-topic, but I've just discovered the "Friend" and "Foe" feature to hide trolling posts. Click on the (repeated) offender's name, click Foe, voila their posts disappear and you don't have to read them.

Typical of brainwashed idiots to want to suppress the truth.

theprawn

Well the truth in my world is that it makes me feel faster, if I feel faster I go faster. I'm not good enough to need to work out anything precisely, everything is done on feel. You stick to your water and I'll have a little gel in there and we'll all be happy as pigs in shit.

bigmat

For 50km you might want one gel but two sounds like overkill. Maybe have one before the race and then another with around 20 minutes to go. At that point you might find there's a bit of a lull in the action. I find a good thing with gels is to stick one up the front of your short leg where you can easily grab it when you get to a long straight / a point where you can comfortably take it on board. As Maryka says, the wrapper needs to end up in your back pocket so you need to be careful hen ripping the top off with your teeth!

@ Trev, not sure I agree with you. I would have thought the benefit to taking on rapidly absorbed carbohydrate (and caffeine in some cases) in a race situation would be pretty obvious. Certainly helps me. I'll only take one if I feel I need it though, not as a matter of course.

DavidJB

I always laughed when I saw cat 4's ramming gels down 5 minutes before the end of the race in a 40 min crit...at least they had energy for the car journey home.

sunburntknees

If I remember correctly from the couple of Cat 4 races I did at Cyclopark last season, they were about 45mins to 1 hour. They did not run to 50k.

I might be wrong here but I think the organisers have to declare a maximum distance for the race catergorisation for BC. However, the comms decide on the distance depending on the conditions on the day.

theprawn

That's handy, I haven't ridden 50k in anger for a while. Anything up to an hour I'm fine. I suppose an hour ten I'd be fine too. Might just make up some strong (non sugarfree) squash and neck some of that. Saves me going to buy gels today. Thanks for all the pointers, I'm pretty excited but want to just treat it as a fun learning experience.

lc1981

Good luck. Make sure you let us know how you get on.

theprawn

cheers, will do.

Pross

lc1981 wrote:

chipperleenie wrote:

You should not really need gels in a 50k race, it will be over in about 1 hour 10 mins, so just one bottle should be plenty. It's not likely to be high temperatures either so you are not going to be losing tons of fluid.

50 km in 70 minutes? Are 4th-category races really this fast?

Depends on how they race but I suspect it won't be far off.

displacedaussie

For what it's worth, this is how fast the races I did were last year. Average speed doesn't mean much, and is obviously _massively_ dependent on the wind, size of the bunch, how people are riding etc. etc. etc. etc.

Castle Combe - Cat 4 - 25mph for the first 4 laps
Ilton - Cat 4 - 50 minutes - 23.5mph
Castle Combe - Cat 3/4 - 52 minutes - 25.9mph
Castle Combe - Cat 3/4 - 62 minutes - 26.9mph
Ilton - Cat 3 - 42 minutes - 23mph
Ilton - Cat 3 - 60 minutes - 25mph
Castle Combe - Cat 3/4 - 64 minutes - 26.1mph
Castle Combe - Cat 3/4 - 59 minutes - 24.7mph
Thruxton - Cat 3/4 - 53 minutes - 23.7mph
Ilton - Cat 3 - 68 minutes - 25.2mph
Castle Combe - Cat 3/4 - 66 minutes - 25.4mph
Castle Combe - E123 - 47 minutes - 28.7mph

Andrew Coggan

Trev The Rev wrote:

Even Dr Andrew Coggan, and he did some of the most quoted tests and is generally accepted to be an expert on these matters, when pressed eventually agreed the 2 hour mark.

Stop making things up.

Trev The Rev

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Even Dr Andrew Coggan, and he did some of the most quoted tests and is generally accepted to be an expert on these matters, when pressed eventually agreed the 2 hour mark.

Stop making things up.

To quote you - your words in bold..

Andrew Coggan
Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:31 PM
Trev The Rev, on 24 July 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:
May I ask what the 7 subjects had eaten prior to the tests?


As is standard practice in all metabolic research, they were studied after an overnight fast. This is not "starvation" as claimed by the BMJ authors, as they would have had enough liver glycogen to fuel another 18-24 of fasting before depletion. (And no, not everyone eats breakfast before prolonged competitions, although most do.)

Trev The Rev, on 24 July 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:
What is your opinion re injesting carbs during events lasting up to one, two or 3 hours?

Around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental CHO during exercise begins to be beneficial.

End quote.

bigmat

Pross wrote:

lc1981 wrote:

chipperleenie wrote:

You should not really need gels in a 50k race, it will be over in about 1 hour 10 mins, so just one bottle should be plenty. It's not likely to be high temperatures either so you are not going to be losing tons of fluid.

50 km in 70 minutes? Are 4th-category races really this fast?

Depends on how they race but I suspect it won't be far off.

Last 3/4 race at Cyclopark was won at average speed of 23mph (in cold, wet, windy conditions) so that is maybe a bit fast but I guess possible.

maryka

I think Cyclopark (and Hog Hill, unlike Hillingdon) tend to be closer to 90 min than 60 min races for 3rds/4ths. See http://app.strava.com/rides/34055775. The two races I've done there were 80-85 min if I recall.

Better to be prepared than not have enough -- take a gel before, keep another at hand (or put some calories in your bottle) if you don't need it, no problem. But please don't be one of the numpties who throws away his half-empty bottle with a lap to go though! More dangerous than sensible or worthwhile.

theprawn

why would i throw my bottle away, what would i put fluid in at the next race?

i've got a manky old caffeine gel that's a year out of date, found it in the back pocket of my trisuit, that should be OK right?

Andrew Coggan

Trev The Rev wrote:

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev The Rev wrote:

Even Dr Andrew Coggan, and he did some of the most quoted tests and is generally accepted to be an expert on these matters, when pressed eventually agreed the 2 hour mark.

Stop making things up.

To quote you - your words in bold..

Andrew Coggan
Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:31 PM
Trev The Rev, on 24 July 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:
May I ask what the 7 subjects had eaten prior to the tests?


As is standard practice in all metabolic research, they were studied after an overnight fast. This is not "starvation" as claimed by the BMJ authors, as they would have had enough liver glycogen to fuel another 18-24 of fasting before depletion. (And no, not everyone eats breakfast before prolonged competitions, although most do.)

Trev The Rev, on 24 July 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:
What is your opinion re injesting carbs during events lasting up to one, two or 3 hours?

Around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental CHO during exercise begins to be beneficial.

End quote.

Where's the "pressing"? You made it sound as if I were reticent to answer your questions as I did.

Trev The Rev

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Where's the "pressing"? You made it sound as if I were reticent to answer your questions as I did.

You can read the whole thread on timetrialling forum. In my opinion I had to press.

Would you agree that fasting for 12 hours before doing endurance cycling tests would get different results to doing the tests having the subjects eat normally before doing the tests?

Andrew Coggan

Trev The Rev wrote:

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Where's the "pressing"? You made it sound as if I were reticent to answer your questions as I did.

You can read the whole thread on timetrialling forum. In my opinion I had to press.

Yes, and we all know how your opinions are always grounded in fact!

Trev The Rev wrote:

Would you agree that fasting for 12 hours before doing endurance cycling tests would get different results to doing the tests having the subjects eat normally before doing the tests?

Not necessarily.

BTW, as I pointed out before, 1) it is standard practice in ALL metabolic research to study subjects in the fasted state, and 2) not everyone eats in the 12 h before racing. For example, I often don't.

Now go away, troll.

maryka

theprawn wrote:

why would i throw my bottle away, what would i put fluid in at the next race?

Throw away as in, toss it to the side as you pass the finish line, pick it up after the race is over. Again, something seen on TV quite a bit, mimicked in 4th cat races, even more fun when the bottle isn't thrown properly and rolls back onto the track...

theprawn wrote:

i've got a manky old caffeine gel that's a year out of date, found it in the back pocket of my trisuit, that should be OK right?

Probably, I've had lots of gels out of date before and they were fine.