Help choosing tubular tyres

mitchgixer6

Hi all.

I have a second hand pair of planet x R50 wheels coming which I plan to use as race wheels for next season. I will be riding mainly tt's as well as some road races. The wheels are coming with a conti competition on the front and a sprinter on the back.

I was planning on swapping out the sprinter for another competition, but should I be looking to change both to something totally different?

I would like the fastest/lightest tyres for racing, but obviously they need to be durable for the road racing and crits. Been looking at the conti podiums or vittoria evo cx. Any opinions on these or any other makes of should be considering?

Thanks guys.

Ber Nard

mitchgixer6 wrote:

I would like the fastest/lightest tyres for racing, but obviously they need to be durable for the road racing and crits. Been looking at the conti podiums or vittoria evo cx. Any opinions on these or any other makes of should be considering? .

I don't have any experience of the Contis but the Vittorias certainly fit the bill. A lot of people rate Veloflex, too.

Rob

sungod

i use veloflex carbon (or if you prefer tan sidewall there's the criterium), lovely ride, good grip in the wet too

having tried them both ways, it's best to strip the latex off the basetape before gluing, otherwise when you remove the tyre all the latex will stay on the rim (you can glue another on top ok, but it means the glue layer is getting thicker/squidgier which probably isn't good for rolling resistance)

the carbons/criteriums are c. 255g, you can go lighter with the extremes/sprinters (black/tan) c. 225g, and record c. 190g, but you lose some robustness with each weight drop, for uk roads i wouldn't go lighter than the carbons, there's also the arenburg/roubaix at 290g if you want something tougher

conti tubs have a reputation for being robust, but not a plush ride

i've not tried the evo cx, mainly because i've seen too many reports that they're scary in the wet!

the carbon has lower rolling resistance (0.0049) than the evo cx (0.0054) and competition (0.0059)

for glue - vittoria mastik one is good, if you've got two new wheels to do a tin is probably better value than tubes, just seal it well after use and store somewhere cool

for removing old glue, white spirit is ok, or for sheer ease and luxury there's http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k374/a ... 100ml.html

pb21

How much of a PITA is it if/when you get a puncture and getting it fixed? They are quite a big outlay.

cougie

Its easy to swap a tub over on the road - unless its pouring down and then you have trouble getting it to stick.
I used to send mine off to get repaired.

I swear by Conti tyres - but not their tubs - I bought the GP400s and double punctured them. Turns out they cant be repaired.

sungod

pb21 wrote:

How much of a PITA is it if/when you get a puncture and getting it fixed? They are quite a big outlay.

(touching wood frantically) i don't puncture as often on tubs vs. similar weight clincher+tube

some people repair their own, it's more fiddly than with a clincher but not rocket science, or you can send them away and it costs a few quid, but there are some types that are hard/impossible to repair

on the road, sealant like tufo extreme may be enough to close a puncture and continue on, otherwise, peel off the tyre and fit the spare, i carry a crazy light tufo tub folded small (takes about the same space as an inner tube), it's preglued, fit, pump, ride, fine to get home on

why ride tubs?

my tub wheels are waaaaay lighter and super stiff, the ride is excellent, low crr vs. most clinchers, if punctured there should be less chance of losing control vs. a clincher, atavistic endeavour, etc.

LegendLust

Another vote for Veloflex Carbons. Superb tyres which offer a bit of 'ruggedness' for racing. My brother uses Schwalbe Ultremo tubs and he rates them highly - he rides E/1 RRs so knows his onions. I think Planet X have a good deal on them

mitchgixer6

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll have a look into the veloflex as they sound perfect for my needs. I think I'd be best taking the ones that are on there off and start from scratch with new ones.

Good advice about changing tyres at the side of the road too. I'd always wondered about that. I take it the tyres are safe to still ride on if you put a new tub on that's been pre glued? Ie if I picked one up early into a 50 mile race?

mitchgixer6

Secondary question. Is there a noticeable difference between 21/22/23 widths?

sungod

if the supplied tyres are in good shape and well glued, i'd ride them for a while, might as well use the rubber, especially while the weather is still likely to be wet

23mm will have better traction and rolling resistance (at a given pressure), also will last a bit longer

if you have to fit a preglued tub on the road, always ensure it's inflated to at least minimum rated pressure, ideally more, it'll help the bond, personally i'd avoid doing high speed turns or very heavy braking just to be on the safe side

i keep my spare rolled basetape to basetape and in a ziploc plastic bag, so the glue stays fresh and doesn't get dust/moisture on it - the one i use for a spare is a tufo elite jet, skinny but very light

when i've pulled off the spare after a few hours, it's been easier than with a properly glued one, but still pretty secure - after use, check the glue is still ok, patch any gaps, then roll up ready for next time


when time comes to fit new tyres, i'd remove all the glue, and prep from scratch

for tub gluing, there's no 'right' way agreed by everyone

this thread is very very long but if you take the time to go through it you'll have got a feel for the general opinion, plus picked up plenty of tips... http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... =3&t=72309

a digested version might say...

i've not found it necessary to stretch carbons, *before* you glue anything, have a practice fitting the tyre on the unglued rim, master the technique of applying even pressure all the way round as you pull the tyre on

preparation...

on the clean rim:
use acetone to remove any trace of grease/other residue from the white spirit/whatever that was used to remove the old glue (acetone is nasty stuff, use gloves, also be aware it will remove decals)
do this three* times {
apply a thin, even, coat of glue, ensure the entire area is covered, edge to edge
don't get glue in the valve hole
if there are spoke holes, don't fill them with glue
let it dry for a day
}

*multiple thin coats are favoured for lower rolling resistance, it does mean it takes a bit longer to do the mounting though, there are faster ways to mount a tyre

on the tyre:
if it's a veloflex carbon, i found out the hard way that it's best to remove the latex on the basetape, scraping with a knife works, i use an old and very slightly serrated table knife - i find it easier to scrape off if i first put a layer of glue on the latex and let it dry - take care not to damage or peel the basetape
apply a layer of glue to the de-latexed basetape
let it dry for a day

mounting time...

apply a thin layer of glue to the rim, cover edge to edge etc.
let it dry for 10 minutes

partially inflate the tyre, not too much, just enough to give it shape

mount the tyre - sounds easy, this is where the practice comes in, look for some youtube videos showing it, main things are to ensure you keep even tension on the tyre as you pull it on, especially at the start for the area around the valve hole

once mounted, you'll probably need to correct the position so that the centre line of the tyre is actually central on the wheel (within a couple of mm is ok) - i find this the toughest part, you have to apply quite a bit of force due to the tension of the tyre and the glue, if it all goes wrong, peel off the tyre and try again

once it's mounted and aligned, pump up to full pressure, roll it around with your full weight on it to squish out air trapped between tyre and rim

use white spirit to clean any glue off the brake tracks (avoid getting it onto the tyre or glued area)

leave the wheel to dry for a day

ride


cheapo acid/flux brushes are good for applying glue, but some people prefer wiping it on with a (plastic gloved) finger

thegreatdivide

Nice one sungod!

I’m about to start gluing my first tubs this weekend. I’ve got Vittoria Corsa’s which are going through a 5 day stretching process. Interesting to read about Veloflex base tape needing scraped before gluing. Are you aware if Corsa’s need scraped too?

The process I’m intending to use is a mash up of various methods sourced online:

Day 1-5 stretch tub
Day 6 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 7 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 8 apply thin amount of glue to rim and tub
Day 9 apply thin amount of glue to rim, mount tub, inflate to 120psi and rest for another 24hrs

How does this look? Any more advice?

napoleond

That's what you have to do to change them at the side of the road too.

pb21

NapoleonD wrote:

That's what you have to do to change them at the side of the road too.

thegreatdivide

NapoleonD wrote:

That's what you have to do to change them at the side of the road too.

I know. But think of the ride quality and that massive weight saving

mamba80

thegreatdivide wrote:

Nice one sungod!

I’m about to start gluing my first tubs this weekend. I’ve got Vittoria Corsa’s which are going through a 5 day stretching process. Interesting to read about Veloflex base tape needing scraped before gluing. Are you aware if Corsa’s need scraped too?

The process I’m intending to use is a mash up of various methods sourced online:

Day 1-5 stretch tub
Day 6 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 7 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 8 apply thin amount of glue to rim and tub
Day 9 apply thin amount of glue to rim, mount tub, inflate to 120psi and rest for another 24hrs

How does this look? Any more advice?

I dont know why anyone would do all that - with Carbon rims and Conti Carbon cement its an overnight job and then 12 to 24hrs , ready to go and with Mastik 1 (al or carbon) its an even quicker process.
removing to replace/repair is a nightmare so it works and it is what both companies rec for their glues, so why go against their instructions?
I ve used both glues on al and carbon, raced on both and used the carbon ones in the alpes and Dolomites, with zero issues.

1 day is plenty to stretch a Corsa, Conti's can be more trouble, just make sure you really pull/press down really hard either side of the valve when you mount tub, never removed latex on vitt's

Your not gluing a Boeing superliner together.

LegendLust

thegreatdivide wrote:

Nice one sungod!

I’m about to start gluing my first tubs this weekend. I’ve got Vittoria Corsa’s which are going through a 5 day stretching process. Interesting to read about Veloflex base tape needing scraped before gluing. Are you aware if Corsa’s need scraped too?

The process I’m intending to use is a mash up of various methods sourced online:

Day 1-5 stretch tub
Day 6 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 7 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 8 apply thin amount of glue to rim and tub
Day 9 apply thin amount of glue to rim, mount tub, inflate to 120psi and rest for another 24hrs

How does this look? Any more advice?

Yes use Tub tape instead.

mitchgixer6

Once again thanks for all the great advice.

I've heard tape makes it much harder to get an old tub off/makes it harder to clean the rim. Is this true?

sungod

hmm, three questions...

why glue not tape?
why multiple glue layers instead of one?
why not conti tubs?

answer, if you are going to the trouble of using tubs, why screw up the experience and performance by using tape? or shite gluing? or tubs that ride like clinchers?

but it's a free world, if others want inferior results, it does me no harm, they're welcome to it

sungod

mitchgixer6 wrote:

Once again thanks for all the great advice.

I've heard tape makes it much harder to get an old tub off/makes it harder to clean the rim. Is this true?

never used it, but i hear some types can be a real bugger to remove, plus it gives inferior performance

for cx, belgian tape gets used together with glue to cope with the nasty conditions, but for road, nah

sungod

this shows the final gluing step and mounting process quite well...

http://bcove.me/4dks0zat

itsnotarace

sungod wrote:

it's best to strip the latex off the basetape before gluing, otherwise when you remove the tyre all the latex will stay on the rim (you can glue another on top ok, but it means the glue layer is getting thicker/squidgier which probably isn't good for rolling resistance

Veloflex say:

"The base tape has a layer of latex that gives impermeability to the tyre and offer better resistance to the glue. If you were thinking of scraping it for gluing the tyre on the wheel we suggest to don't remove the latex, this operation it's not needed and could result into tyre damage. All of the people we know, including pro-team mechanics never remove the latex from the base tape."

As long as you're careful, it's not difficult to remove a Veloflex Carbon leaving the base layer intact. I've done it a couple of times on my Zipps

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

Nice one sungod!

I’m about to start gluing my first tubs this weekend. I’ve got Vittoria Corsa’s which are going through a 5 day stretching process. Interesting to read about Veloflex base tape needing scraped before gluing. Are you aware if Corsa’s need scraped too?

The process I’m intending to use is a mash up of various methods sourced online:

Day 1-5 stretch tub
Day 6 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 7 apply thin amount of glue to rim
Day 8 apply thin amount of glue to rim and tub
Day 9 apply thin amount of glue to rim, mount tub, inflate to 120psi and rest for another 24hrs

How does this look? Any more advice?

FFS... no wonder people are put off from using tubulars... there is no need for all this palaver.
Vittoria tubs barely need to be stretched at all and glue is just glue, treat it as any other glue, there is nothing magic about it

thegreatdivide

Really helpful info there ugo.

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

Really helpful info there ugo.

I think people get a bit carried away with the overload of information available on the topic. A bit of common sense is all it's needed... follow the instructions on the glue tin... fit in the evening, ride in the morning... some tyres need stretching, others are pretty much stretched from the start.

Like everything... common sense, some make cleaning a chain into a 24 hours operation involving all sorts of tools... they should get a life!

petemadoc

ugo.santalucia wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Really helpful info there ugo.

I think people get a bit carried away with the overload of information available on the topic. A bit of common sense is all it's needed... follow the instructions on the glue tin... fit in the evening, ride in the morning... some tyres need stretching, others are pretty much stretched from the start.

Like everything... common sense, some make cleaning a chain into a 24 hours operation involving all sorts of tools... they should get a life!

Have to agree with you Ugo

After researching tubs this autumn there is a whole ton of BS talked about the subject. Just follow the manufacturers instructions and ride.

thegreatdivide

This is Bike Radar forums – nothing is simple.

petemadoc

thegreatdivide wrote:

This is Bike Radar forums – nothing is simple.

I think weight weenies is the culprit, there's a bazilion pages of BS over there.

As I understand it the correct method for mounting tubs is as follows

1) place new tyres in an wine cellar in central France for 5 years
2) mount tub on dry rim for 10 weeks to stretch
3) begin the gluing process, 4 coats on the rim, 2 on the tyre
4) glue one more time
5) mount tyre on rim
6) inflate
7) leave for 24 hours
8) ride
9) make sure you never get a puncture

thegreatdivide

PeteMadoc wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

This is Bike Radar forums – nothing is simple.

I think weight weenies is the culprit, there's a bazilion pages of BS over there.

As I understand it the correct method for mounting tubs is as follows

1) place new tyres in an wine cellar in central France for 5 years2) mount tub on dry rim for 10 weeks to stretch
3) begin the gluing process, 4 coats on the rim, 2 on the tyre
4) glue one more time
5) mount tyre on rim
6) inflate
7) leave for 24 hours
8) ride
9) make sure you never get a puncture

Nobody told me about this bit :shock:

markos1963

I can't understand what all the fuss is about? I use Conti Sprinters and Jantex tape. Works out at about ten minutes a wheel to fit, no stretching, no mess and three seasons racing with no hassle.

cougie

I always used tub tape. If my wife saw me with a brush and glue she may think I could do painting as well. Much easier to be inept all round I find.

petemadoc

thegreatdivide wrote:

Nobody told me about this bit :shock:

What! You mean you didn't know :roll: