Peddling in circles?!?

Mikey1976

Hi people.

Quick question.

Do many people use the technique of "peddling in circles"?

I've been cycling for a while now and if I was going to put a % of power used whilst peddling I would guesstimate 90% on the downstroke and 10% on the up.

Should peddling in circles equate to 50% down/up?

secretsqizz

Let us know when you can actually do 50/50, you'll have the arse the size of 3 rabid baboons

Mikey1976

Thanks for being so constructive...

Gizmodo

I don't think 50/50 is possible, but sometimes pulling on the upstroke can use different muscles if your legs are tired.

Try this as a starting point http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-pedal-like-a-pro-12772/

Herbsman

Mikey1976 wrote:

Hi people.

Quick question.

Do many people use the technique of "peddling in circles"?

I've been cycling for a while now and if I was going to put a % of power used whilst peddling I would guesstimate 90% on the downstroke and 10% on the up.

Should peddling in circles equate to 50% down/up?

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Mikey1976

Gizmodo wrote:

I don't think 50/50 is possible, but sometimes pulling on the upstroke can use different muscles if your legs are tired.

Try this as a starting point http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-pedal-like-a-pro-12772/

Very interesting read, thanks for the info.

kentphil

I think its more about peddling smoothly with a constant cadence so your not stomping down on the pedals in a too high gear. Fast cyclists often look to be peddling effortlessly; just look at Wiggo.

marz

Herbsman wrote:

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Plenty of cyclists produces power on the upstroke. It is in fact very easy to do so. Now whether doing this is actually beneficial to efficient pedaling is currently open for debate.

I've often found it a useful technique for adding a bit of extra power when required, like towards the end of a steep kill.

Marcryan206

Gizmodo wrote:

I don't think 50/50 is possible, but sometimes pulling on the upstroke can use different muscles if your legs are tired.

Try this as a starting point http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-pedal-like-a-pro-12772/

"We do know that Armstrong improved his efficiency 2-3% from 1992 to 2000 as a result of his training"

Just shows how you can improve your pedalling with a little training cheers lance!

lotus49

marz wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Plenty of cyclists produces power on the upstroke. It is in fact very easy to do so. Now whether doing this is actually beneficial to efficient pedaling is currently open for debate.

I've often found it a useful technique for adding a bit of extra power when required, like towards the end of a steep kill.

It's a myth.

Ordinary (ie not pros) cyclists never do and even pros don't to any meaningful extent. Have a read of this http://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bike-fi ... troke.html.

CYCLESPORT1

Learn to pedal like Lance (did).

robbo2011

Sorry, but I see this so often and it drives me nuts.

peddle (pdl)
v. ped·dled, ped·dling, ped·dles
v.tr.
1.
a. To travel about selling (wares): peddling goods from door to door.
b. To engage in the illicit sale of (narcotics).
2. Informal To seek to disseminate; give out: peddling lies.



pedaling present participle of ped·al (Verb)
Verb

Move by working the pedals of a bicycle.
Move (a bicycle) by working its pedals.

Thanks for reading, I feel better now.

cougie

Yes - everything worked out well for him....

MichaelW

Try removing one pedal and see if you still apply upward power on the upstroke.

bigpikle

MichaelW wrote:

Try removing one pedal and see if you still apply upward power on the upstroke.

do you spend a lot of time riding with 1 pedal? Try 1 leg cycling and you'll realise its exactly how you DONT ride when you have 2 legs/pedals...

This is irrelevant to understanding how you normally ride.

bernithebiker

MichaelW wrote:

Try removing one pedal and see if you still apply upward power on the upstroke.

Not sure I understand this; I can quite happily cycle along with just one leg (having unclipped the other foot).

And yes, I can generate meaningful upward pull on the up stroke.

Whether or not I can during normal pedaling is doubtful.....

Herbsman

robbo2011 wrote:

Sorry, but I see this so often and it drives me nuts.

peddle (pdl)
v. ped·dled, ped·dling, ped·dles
v.tr.
1.
a. To travel about selling (wares): peddling goods from door to door.
b. To engage in the illicit sale of (narcotics).
2. Informal To seek to disseminate; give out: peddling lies.



pedaling present participle of ped·al (Verb)
Verb

Move by working the pedals of a bicycle.
Move (a bicycle) by working its pedals.

Thanks for reading, I feel better now.

Thank you for this. I was going to mention it in my original reply as it is really f**king annoying(!) but thought I would leave it alone for fear of being labelled 'Internet Spelling Police'

Herbsman

marz wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Plenty of cyclists produces power on the upstroke. It is in fact very easy to do so. Now whether doing this is actually beneficial to efficient pedaling is currently open for debate.

I've often found it a useful technique for adding a bit of extra power when required, like towards the end of a steep kill.

No, they don't.

I repeat: The only thing you can do is try to reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Marcryan206 wrote:

Gizmodo wrote:

I don't think 50/50 is possible, but sometimes pulling on the upstroke can use different muscles if your legs are tired.

Try this as a starting point http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/article/technique-pedal-like-a-pro-12772/

"We do know that Armstrong improved his efficiency 2-3% from 1992 to 2000 as a result of his training"

Just shows how you can improve your pedalling with a little training cheers lance!

That article made me laugh. So full of flaws it's actually impossible to believe that it wasn't written for comedic purposes.

Herbsman

If you are capable of producing power on the upstroke then you're simply not pushing hard enough on the downstroke. May I suggest that you consider pedaling harder?

bernithebiker

Herbsman wrote:

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Not saying you're wrong, but what about one legged pedaling? You must be generating power on the upstroke or you wouldn't be able to move forward?

marz

lotus49 wrote:

marz wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Plenty of cyclists produces power on the upstroke. It is in fact very easy to do so. Now whether doing this is actually beneficial to efficient pedaling is currently open for debate.

I've often found it a useful technique for adding a bit of extra power when required, like towards the end of a steep kill.

It's a myth.

Ordinary (ie not pros) cyclists never do and even pros don't to any meaningful extent. Have a read of this http://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bike-fi ... troke.html.

Not a myth, it is very easy to pull up and produce power on the up stroke. The 'myth' or debate is whether doing so is effective, benefitial or even something the pro's do when cycling.

marz

Herbsman wrote:

No, they don't.

Yes they do, when you pull up on the pedals, you produce power. Now whether it's useful power and an efficient method to produce power is debatable.

Having snapped off a few pedals in my time, I would not have been able to ride home without pulling up and producing power.

Herbsman

bernithebiker wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No cyclist produces power on the upstroke. You are more likely to be putting out -10% of your power on the upstroke, which the other leg has to overcome on the downstroke. The only thing you can do is try tp reduce the amount of downward force on the upstroke than you already produce.

Not saying you're wrong, but what about one legged pedaling? You must be generating power on the upstroke or you wouldn't be able to move forward?

Ever heard of momentum?

Also, have you noticed that when you're pedaling with one leg, and your one leg that's pedaling is pulling up on the upstroke, there is no leg pressing down on the pedal that's going down?

Herbsman

marz wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No, they don't.

Yes they do, when you pull up on the pedals, you produce power. Now whether it's useful power and an efficient method to produce power is debatable.

Having snapped off a few pedals in my time, I would not have been able to ride home without pulling up and producing power.

Did you not notice that when you had to ride home one-legged, your non-pedaling leg was not pressing down on the front pedal while your pedaling leg was pulling up?

Unless you are pressing down really weakly with your front foot there is no way you can generate enough force by pulling up with your back foot, to contribute to the forward motion of the pedals.

I would like to see how you think it's possible. Do you have cranks with strain gauges in the arms? Because I guarantee that if you are pedaling as hard as you can, no matter how hard you try to pull your back foot up, the force from your front foot pressing on the front pedal will still be pushing the back pedal against your back foot harder than you can pull your back foot up.

Believe me, I've had this argument enough times. The only difference is that I was arguing from your position until I had actual evidence shown to me by people who are more knowledgable than me.

marz

Herbsman wrote:

marz wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No, they don't.

Yes they do, when you pull up on the pedals, you produce power. Now whether it's useful power and an efficient method to produce power is debatable.

Having snapped off a few pedals in my time, I would not have been able to ride home without pulling up and producing power.

Did you not notice that when you had to ride home one-legged, your non-pedaling leg was not pressing down on the front pedal while your pedaling leg was pulling up?

Unless you are pressing down really weakly with your front foot there is no way you can generate enough force by pulling up with your back foot, to contribute to the forward motion of the pedals.

I would like to see how you think it's possible. Do you have cranks with strain gauges in the arms? Because I guarantee that if you are pedaling as hard as you can, no matter how hard you try to pull your back foot up, the force from your front foot pressing on the front pedal will still be pushing the back pedal against your back foot harder than you can pull your back foot up.

Believe me, I've had this argument enough times. The only difference is that I was arguing from your position until I had actual evidence shown to me by people who are more knowledgable than me.

Err, yes. When pedaling with one leg I did find I was pushing and pulling with one leg. Not really sure what you're asking here.

And it is very possible to pedal in circles, as possible as it is to turn a hand crank by using both triceps and biceps. Also, it's nothing to do with the amount of force produced by pulling and pushing as it is pretty obvious a cyclist can produce more power pushing than pulling. It's more to do with speed of the pull and if one can pull as fast as one can push a pedal around, some power will be produced on the up stroke. It's simple physics. I don't need a strain gauge as I can feel the lift of my foot against the upper part of my show.

BUT, the debate out there is whether even trying to the pull up is worthwhile. And from what I've read if a rider focuses on the pedal stroke from 11 to 7 oclock position and the rest will take care of itself. Attempting to pedal in complete circles seems to detract from an efficient push stroke where 99% of the power is created.

ethanhayes

Herbsman wrote:

marz wrote:

Herbsman wrote:

No, they don't.

Yes they do, when you pull up on the pedals, you produce power. Now whether it's useful power and an efficient method to produce power is debatable.


Unless you are pressing down really weakly with your front foot there is no way you can generate enough force by pulling up with your back foot, to contribute to the forward motion of the pedals.

That's probably correct, the difference in the force produced when your legs are pushing on an object instead of pulling on an object will probably shock most.
But why does that mean no force is applied to the back pedal with your pulling leg?

Surely if you share the force between the two, there would be a small (perhaps so small it's useless.) gain?
The way I'm thinking about it is this:
If your front foot is pushing on a pedal where the rear foot isn't pulling on the real pedal - The front foot is having to use more of the force produced to list up the weight (the weight being the weight of your foot.)
But if your pulling up on the rear pedal, there is less weight needing to be shifted, meaning more power from your legs used for forward motion.
If that makes any sense, I'm having a great deal of difficulty trying to put this idea into words at the moment.


It doesn't make sense to say no power is produced if your pulling a pedal up. If I only use one leg I can still get my bike to move forward by only pulling up on the pedal.
But in proper cycling I agree with you - I think If there is any sort of gain in efficiency, it would be tiny.

ethanhayes

If I am trying to move a weight by pushing it along the floor by my self I am going to see fatigue develop quicker than I would if I shared the work load with a mate, who was pulling the load I am also pushing.
The amount of force needed won't change, but less effort is expected from the engine.

Does this idea work in terms of cycling?
Where the weight is the rear pedal with the weight of a foot doing nothing but rest
My mate is my leg, pulling up on the rear pedal
and the engine is my front leg producing power on the front pedal

I'm not suggesting it does - I'm genuinely trying to get my head around this concept.
That doesn't need to translate into any sort of efficiency gain either.

marz

Watch and learn. A nice balanced review of pedaling technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpvASJDpms

mike6

Of course you pull up when pedaling, that is why you have hamstring muscles as well as thigh muscles. Also, if you produce no power pulling up on the pedal why bother with clipless pedals, or clips and straps? Just use cheap flat pedals.

That is why the pros say, when they are struggling, that they are "Pedaling squares" instead of circles. I was always instructed that you work right round the pedal stroke.

lotus49

marz wrote:

Having snapped off a few pedals in my time, I would not have been able to ride home without pulling up and producing power.

That simply isn't true. You pedalled by pushing on the downstroke and momentum carried you forward until you were able to push again.

The research that has been done shows that the best you can realistically hope for is to reduce the weight of the leg that is on the upstroke and even doing that will reduce the power produced by the downstroke leg.

Not only do cyclists not produce useful power on the upstroke, trying to do so will reduce the total power produced because the small benefit of the pull is more than made up for by the loss of power on the simultaneous push.

If you are really interested, I can post a list of proper research papers into the topic but there has been plenty of research and it all points in the same direction.

jezzpalmer

mike6 wrote:

Of course you pull up when pedaling, that is why you have hamstring muscles as well as thigh muscles. Also, if you produce no power pulling up on the pedal why bother with clipless pedals, or clips and straps? Just use cheap flat pedals.

That is why the pros say, when they are struggling, that they are "Pedaling squares" instead of circles. I was always instructed that you work right round the pedal stroke.

You generally don't pull up, not particularly good for the knees, and clips are generally for foot security and positive transmission of effort, not for pulling up.
The hamstring & glute is used around the 4-7 o'clock 'wiping the feet on the mat' phase of the pedal stroke where you pull the leg back and start to bend the leg; but on the whole the hamstring doesn't do a lot in cycling, the opposite to running where the quad doesn't do so much but the hamstring does most of the work.

Here's a graph of the torque of one leg (from Rotor)



two legs...


Pedalling in squares is when form goes, and the pushing over the top of the stroke, and pulling through the bottom of the stroke goes out of the window, so instead of smooth 11-7 stroke with overlap you get more of a 12-6 with dead spots at the top and bottom of the stroke.

We're pedalling in Peanuts (or sausages if your really good), not circles...
http://www.cyclosport.org/09-Feb-2011/t ... tbike.html