The trial of George Osborne

finchy

tiredofwhiners wrote:

Let me think - how about Brown tearing the heart out of private pensions to spend the money on the public sector. Nope, everyone was completely silent on that.

That is about HOW the money was raised. It wasn't about increasing debt levels.

tiredofwhiners wrote:

How about every budget when public expenditure on staff rose, and the debt levels increased. Nope, complete silence on that as well.

I refer you to what Pliptrot says above.

tiredofwhiners wrote:

I cannot be bothered to search for any more as your mind is in denial so more fact won't sway you.

Here's a fact - the examples you have given are small fry. The policies that are really going to screw our country up - PFI/PPP and the de-regulation of the financial industry - were supported by both Labour and the Conservatives. The only big party to oppose them in their election manifestos was the Liberal Democrats.

tiredofwhiners wrote:

What you are getting now is the painful consequences of borrowing too much, spending it on administrative people in the public sector (the drag on the economy) blahblahblah

1) The public sector is not a drag on the economy when the money is wisely invested.
2) Over-management in the public sector often occurs because of privatisation. I've worked in council departments in which most of the work was trying to co-ordinate private agencies who all seemed to have scant regard for their legal obligations and were only interested in picking up those juicy government cheques. Again, this is a policy which was supported by both Labour and the Tories.

tiredofwhiners wrote:

But yeah, everyone was completely silent. Nobody complained at all about the continual overspend, the bloating of the public sector. When the Tories are done, the country will be on the verge of there being no deficit and then we'll see how much the public like the idea of going into another deficit boom fuelled Labour bloat given they know what happens when the bill arrives. We might even start paying off some debt. People will have learned that there isn't a free lunch and that those who earn money aren't keen to give it away to politicians to waste on others who haven't earned it. Its why you hear so many screams from Guardianland - they have realised that the 'right of centre' are not in control

Or, maybe it's more that everyone recognises the fact that the debt and deficit needs to come down but disagree on the details. Did that thought ever occur to you?

tiredofwhiners wrote:

- but the majority view in the UK has moved right of the middle because so many people have realised how much money the left wing wastes and that the they have paid off the debt that B&B created, they will have a lot more money.

Is that why Labour are ahead in the opinion polls?

tiredofwhiners wrote:

I guess it was hard for you to hear anything as its clear where your head was lodged firmly.

I think this might be the most immature thing that I've ever read on Cake Stop. Where was pinarello absolving Labour of blame? Nowhere.

OffTheBackAdam

pliptrot wrote:

Has anyone on the front bench - or shadow front bench - ever worked ?

There, corrected your error!

pliptrot

...and focused on the problem.....;-)

pinno

tiredofwhiners wrote:

I cannot be bothered to search for any more as your mind is in denial so more fact won't sway you.

Denial about what exactly ? and if you thought the above, why did you carry on with this

---

>

What you are getting now is the painful consequences of borrowing too much, spending it on administrative people in the public sector (the drag on the economy) rather than investment in industry to actually bring in more taxes. He encouraged local rates go go up hugely to pay for even more council non-jobs which again tilted the scales to the drag side and he used the public sector as a dumping ground for the unemployed rather than support the creating of wealth creating jobs in industry. He drove the economy to a high speed into the ground and bailed out just before it hit.

Thats right - Cameroon and co have been in power for 2 years and still blaming the previous administration for the current problems which stem from the Thatcherite era that:

Got rid ogf the GLC
Got rid of the Milk Marketing Board
Ripped the heart out of industry just simply to veto the Unions (it takes 3 service sector jobs to replace 1 industrial job and service sector jobs are fickle especially in hard times).
Disbanded the HIDB (Highlands and Islands Development Board.
Reduced employment rights down to nothing*

But yeah, everyone was completely silent. Nobody complained at all about the continual overspend, the bloating of the public sector. When the Tories are done, the country will be on the verge of there being no deficit and then we'll see how much the public like the idea of going into another deficit boom fuelled Labour bloat given they know what happens when the bill arrives.

You make yet another assumption. ! I am a Labour voting lefty who reads the Guardian and nothing else.
Intrinsic to Neo-Liberalism and Neo-conservatism is the proliferation of bureaucracy. There is no 'Labour Party' as far as I am concerned the Blair Administration was a bunch of Neo-cons and the current bunch are Neo-Liberals.


We might even start paying off some debt. People will have learned that there isn't a free lunch and that those who earn money aren't keen to give it away to politicians to waste on others who haven't earned it. Its why you hear so many screams from Guardianland - more shyte

I guess it was hard for you to hear anything as its clear where your head was lodged firmly.

You have no concept of political theory. You make assumptions galore. Your idea that the current free-market capitalism is going to rectify everything and Cameroon and Co are somehow in more control than B&B were is flawed for the very fact that we are in this mess because of it. I do not think that I should pay for the errors of the cavalier actions of government and the banking industry. There is no such thing as a free lunch you say ?!?! The banks tried to have free lunches globally. It was not my error. It was not my speculations that went pear shaped. It was not my request that the banks forgot responsibility when they acted as they did. It is not my debt yet we are paying for it.

*This is not insignificant. The service sector and retail industry often employs people on part-time temporary contracts. Those on part-time wages are claiming Housing Benefit and Working Tax Credits. We, the tax payer are contributing millions indirectly to the profits of those companies no longer obliged to provide decent pensions, decent full-time wages and decent working salaries that wouldl pay into the taxation system and maintain the dwindling pension pot.

On a final note, why can't you accept the pretty reasonable arguments presented by people as their opinion and one they have formed themselves through their eyes without resorting to stereotyping and cliches ?

ddraver

pinarello001 wrote:

Thats right - Cameroon and co have been in power for 2 years and still blaming the previous administration for the current problems which stem from the Thatcherite era that:

To be fair, B&B were still dismissing Tory policies on the basis that "when they were last in government they did..." even when they'd been in power for 10 years, so I think C&O have got a lot more time to play that card...

More pointless bullsh1t from both parties....

pb21

Possibly the most significant past government move was the deregulation of the financial markets in the 80s.

disgruntledgoat

Can somebody explain to me the thinking behind tax credits? To me it just looks like an enomous and incompetent beaurocracy set up to give people a bit of their own money back.

Why not just tax them a little bit less in the first place?

disgruntledgoat

pb21 wrote:

Possibly the most significant past government move was the deregulation of the financial markets in the 80s.

This.

It was effectively this act and the accompanying "big bang" that only really boosted income in one part of the country that destroyed the post-war consensus.

finchy

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Can somebody explain to me the thinking behind tax credits? To me it just looks like an enomous and incompetent beaurocracy set up to give people a bit of their own money back.

Why not just tax them a little bit less in the first place?

From my bitter experience, tax credits work a little bit like this.

1) You claim tax credits because you are working on a low wage
2) Your circumstances change and earnings go up
3) You inform the relevant authorities about this
4) The authorities take your updated information and say that you are still eligible for tax credits
5) Three years later, they get in contact with you to say that actually, because of the change in circumstances, you owe them all of the money back, and present you with a £1,600 bill.

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

DesB3rd

yway, on the subject of debt, the last Tory Government increased national debt from 27% to 42% of GDP, and in the first 4 years of the Blair Government it was reduced to 32% of GDP. It rose to 35% of GDP until 2008,

Overlay them (44% in 79, 27% in 91, 42% in 97, 34% in '00) on the backdrop of economic performance and a picture of orthodox, conservative counter-cyclical spending is apparent; 2001-2008 is a different story. The unusual scale of the post-2008 downturn excuses the former govt of a great deal but insinuating that they were no more fiscally adventurous than there predecessors is nothing more than partisan.

Frank the tank

pinarello001 wrote:

tiredofwhiners wrote:

I cannot be bothered to search for any more as your mind is in denial so more fact won't sway you.

Denial about what exactly ? and if you thought the above, why did you carry on with this

---

>

What you are getting now is the painful consequences of borrowing too much, spending it on administrative people in the public sector (the drag on the economy) rather than investment in industry to actually bring in more taxes. He encouraged local rates go go up hugely to pay for even more council non-jobs which again tilted the scales to the drag side and he used the public sector as a dumping ground for the unemployed rather than support the creating of wealth creating jobs in industry. He drove the economy to a high speed into the ground and bailed out just before it hit.

Thats right - Cameroon and co have been in power for 2 years and still blaming the previous administration for the current problems which stem from the Thatcherite era that:

Got rid ogf the GLC
Got rid of the Milk Marketing Board
Ripped the heart out of industry just simply to veto the Unions (it takes 3 service sector jobs to replace 1 industrial job and service sector jobs are fickle especially in hard times).
Disbanded the HIDB (Highlands and Islands Development Board.
Reduced employment rights down to nothing*

But yeah, everyone was completely silent. Nobody complained at all about the continual overspend, the bloating of the public sector. When the Tories are done, the country will be on the verge of there being no deficit and then we'll see how much the public like the idea of going into another deficit boom fuelled Labour bloat given they know what happens when the bill arrives.

You make yet another assumption. ! I am a Labour voting lefty who reads the Guardian and nothing else.
Intrinsic to Neo-Liberalism and Neo-conservatism is the proliferation of bureaucracy. There is no 'Labour Party' as far as I am concerned the Blair Administration was a bunch of Neo-cons and the current bunch are Neo-Liberals.


We might even start paying off some debt. People will have learned that there isn't a free lunch and that those who earn money aren't keen to give it away to politicians to waste on others who haven't earned it. Its why you hear so many screams from Guardianland - more shyte

I guess it was hard for you to hear anything as its clear where your head was lodged firmly.

You have no concept of political theory. You make assumptions galore. Your idea that the current free-market capitalism is going to rectify everything and Cameroon and Co are somehow in more control than B&B were is flawed for the very fact that we are in this mess because of it. I do not think that I should pay for the errors of the cavalier actions of government and the banking industry. There is no such thing as a free lunch you say ?!?! The banks tried to have free lunches globally. It was not my error. It was not my speculations that went pear shaped. It was not my request that the banks forgot responsibility when they acted as they did. It is not my debt yet we are paying for it.

*This is not insignificant. The service sector and retail industry often employs people on part-time temporary contracts. Those on part-time wages are claiming Housing Benefit and Working Tax Credits. We, the tax payer are contributing millions indirectly to the profits of those companies no longer obliged to provide decent pensions, decent full-time wages and decent working salaries that wouldl pay into the taxation system and maintain the dwindling pension pot.

On a final note, why can't you accept the pretty reasonable arguments presented by people as their opinion and one they have formed themselves through their eyes without resorting to stereotyping and cliches ?

I'll vote for you fella.

verylonglegs

The tax credits thing is a fair point, it's a ridiculous system however well intentioned. It's unintended consequences are daft. I know of people who've found themselves trapped by it, for example someone who had the chance to become a supervisor but found that the changes to their tax credits meant it would be all the extra responsibility but only for an extra tenner a month. So he unsurprisingly turned it down. It artifically distorts the labour market as pinarello says.

I will however always maintain there was no choice but to bail the banks out, if that system had collapsed the results would have been far worse than what we have now. You only have to look a the panic a supposed petrol shortage causes here to imagine how bad things would be if the cash machines were switched off and the supermarkets had to close their doors.