Lawyer tabs - does/did your bike have them

lotus49

How common are lawyer tabs outside the US?

Did your bike come with them and does it still have them (ie did you file them off)?

They strike me as annoyingly stupid as there isn't much advantage to having a quick release if you still cannot get the wheel out without unscrewing the QR, but I'm not sure how common they are?

graeme_s-2

All my bikes have them, I haven't filed them off. I agree they're a pain, but it's still easier/quicker to get the front wheel on and off than it is on my fixie which has track nuts on both the front and rear wheel.

keef66

My bike has them. Found them annoying at first and thought about filing them off, but the number of times I have to take the front wheel off I'm not sure I'll bother.

If I was racing with a support car full of spare wheels, I'd probably file them off.

alfablue

8 of my 9 bikes have them on the forks; the exception is a 1997 Dawes Audax 531. I accidently (honest!) forgot to tighten the q/r on my g/f's mountain bike before a ride round the Timberland Trail, after a while she told me the wheel was rattling :oops: . The Tabs probably kept the wheel on the bike and saved her from injury and me from a beating!

bompington

Was a bit dismayed when I discovered my new fork (road) had them. I'm going to file them off for the 0.5g weight saving and the extra aero advantage ;-)
I can understand why you might think they were a good idea on violently ridden, disc-equipped MTBs. But even then, is there any evidence that the wheel can come off if the QR is done up properly?

alfablue

bompington wrote:

But even then, is there any evidence that the wheel can come off if the QR is done up properly?

As above, I think its when the QR isn't done up properly when they have a use. Protects the stupid or careless :oops:

Dales1

My BMC has them. Really irritating and unnecessary. But the wheel doesn't come out much, so I haven't taken a file to the carbon fibres. Colin Chapman would have filed them off - he never gave even a washer a free ride.

Dales.

lotus49

Dales1 wrote:

My BMC has them. Really irritating and unnecessary. But the wheel doesn't come out much, so I haven't taken a file to the carbon fibres. Colin Chapman would have filed them off - he never gave even a washer a free ride.

Dales.

I hadn't thought of carbon bikes having them. I sort of assumed (without really thinking about it) that they were less likely to appear on more expensive bikes. I dare say taking a file to carbon forks may not be a good idea.

I don't know if you referred to Colin Chapman because of my username but as you can probably guess, he was a bit of a hero of mine and would indeed have given them short shrift. That said, he wasn't the one driving the cars .

alfablue

I don't think they are much of a nuisance; everyone is in such a rush these days :roll: . Unless you're racing, just take the extra 2.1 seconds to remove the wheel and be thankful that this is protecting the stupid and careless from themselves.

utgaardaolle

I had to google to find out what you where discussing. Nope, never seen them on any of my bikes over here in Sweden. Aparently we are still trusted to keep our weels on while riding.

FatTed

Neither my Colnago MXL or my Llewellyn Custodian have Lawyer Tabs.

rolf_f

lotus49 wrote:

I don't know if you referred to Colin Chapman because of my username but as you can probably guess, he was a bit of a hero of mine and would indeed have given them short shrift. That said, he wasn't the one driving the cars .

Not only would Chapman have filed them off he'd have drilled the forks to save weight. And then he'd have had them chrome plated......

I can't see why anyone would lose any sleep over their presence - an odd thing to get irritated by!

alfablue

Rolf F wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

I don't know if you referred to Colin Chapman because of my username but as you can probably guess, he was a bit of a hero of mine and would indeed have given them short shrift. That said, he wasn't the one driving the cars .

Not only would Chapman have filed them off he'd have drilled the forks to save weight. And then he'd have had them chrome plated......

and then have a catastrophic failure and go back to the drawing board

BillyMansell

Back in the early nineties when racing bikes didn't come with tabs as standard, my brother was training one day doing 30+mph down a hill when for some unknown reason the front quick release came loose, the wheel popped out and he landed on his head.

He was in an induced coma for several days due to brain swelling, lost a lot of skin of his face, couldn't ride for several months and missed out on Olympic selection. By comparison, fork tabs are a welcome minor inconvenience.

chrisaonabike

My Giant Defy has them (I had to look them up too, before I knew what they were).

I won't be filing them off. I'm so fast already that I need the air resistance to make training worthwhile. That, and the fact that I hardly ever take the wheels off... in fact, I haven't taken the rear one off at all yet. I took the front one off to see how QR works, since the last time I had a bike it had wheel nuts. I then had to use YouTube to make sure I got it back on right :oops:

alfablue

I don't think you'll have tabs on the rear

rolf_f

alfablue wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

I don't know if you referred to Colin Chapman because of my username but as you can probably guess, he was a bit of a hero of mine and would indeed have given them short shrift. That said, he wasn't the one driving the cars .

Not only would Chapman have filed them off he'd have drilled the forks to save weight. And then he'd have had them chrome plated......

and then have a catastrophic failure and go back to the drawing board

Returning with a new rider obviously!

drlodge

The carbon forks on my Rourke 953 have these tabs and I find it really quite annoying since its difficult to get the exact same tightness each time when putting on the wheel. With the Campag hubs, the hub bearing adjustment is affected by the pressure of the quick release - tighter the release, the more pressure on the hub and the tighter the adjustment is. Not quite tight enough, and there's play in the bearing.

andrew_s

bompington wrote:

I can understand why you might think they were a good idea on violently ridden, disc-equipped MTBs. But even then, is there any evidence that the wheel can come off if the QR is done up properly?

I've seen it happen, fortunately at very low speed and within walking distance of a shop that would sell a new set of forks.
The rider concerned had got a new bike with hydraulic brakes and no lawyer lips, and had been previously playing with the brakes by slamming them on hard in all the hairpins on alpine descents.
The net ejection force on a vigorously used disc brake can be over your bodyweight, and if a weak QR allows any movement at all the QR will loosen itself over time. A weak QR is mostly anything except for Shimano.

kentphil

Don't file the lawyer tabs off or you'll fall under the wrath of the UCI

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/ ... gth_209958

alfablue

KentPhil wrote:

Don't file the lawyer tabs off or you'll fall under the wrath of the UCI

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/ ... gth_209958

Interesting, especially this bit:

If the rule is enforced this year, team mechanics will have to put new forks on their race bikes that include the stock tabs. To retain fast wheel changes, they may have to resort to redesigned quick releases that open far enough to clear the tabs.

which would completely negate the effect of the tabs, and the safety they provide :roll:

rolf_f

alfablue wrote:

which would completely negate the effect of the tabs, and the safety they provide

Depends where you see the problem. If the tabs are needed because people don't do up their QR, then redesigned QRs will indeed negate the tabs. On the other hand, if the problem is people not tightening the QR enough, then they won't negate the problem.

Just by visuals, I'd notice if my QRs were hanging loose but not that they weren't tight enough.

alfablue

I could envisage that riders / mechanics in the heat of the moment, could fail to tighten them enough and then they come loose; I wonder how common such events might be.

lotus49

alfablue wrote:

I don't think they are much of a nuisance; everyone is in such a rush these days :roll: . Unless you're racing, just take the extra 2.1 seconds to remove the wheel and be thankful that this is protecting the stupid and careless from themselves.

In the UK people are expected to suffer the consequences of their own stupidity. I think that this is a good idea. It helps to improve the gene pool. There is no point in suing someone because they didn't try to stop you doing something idiotic but sadly in the US law suits that would be regarded as frivolous in the UK often succeed.

This is the only reason that lawyer tabs exist and I don't think that's a very good reason. The whole point of a quick release is that you can release it quickly. Having to unscrew it and then screw it back again, possibly to a different tension is a waste of time considering that a properly done up QR will be safe, lawyer tabs or not.

Having said that, I was just curious. It's not something that keeps me awake at night. Perhaps I shouldn't have bought a US bike (mine's a Giant) .

drlodge

lotus49 wrote:

The whole point of a quick release is that you can release it quickly. Having to unscrew it and then screw it back again, possibly to a different tension is a waste of time considering that a properly done up QR will be safe, lawyer tabs or not.

This----^ Why are there not lawyer tabs on the rear wheels though, they too have the same quick release mechanism and therefore pose the same "risk"?

alfablue

lotus49 wrote:

alfablue wrote:

I don't think they are much of a nuisance; everyone is in such a rush these days :roll: . Unless you're racing, just take the extra 2.1 seconds to remove the wheel and be thankful that this is protecting the stupid and careless from themselves.

In the UK people are expected to suffer the consequences of their own stupidity. I think that this is a good idea. It helps to improve the gene pool. There is no point in suing someone because they didn't try to stop you doing something idiotic but sadly in the US law suits that would be regarded as frivolous in the UK often succeed.

This is the only reason that lawyer tabs exist and I don't think that's a very good reason. The whole point of a quick release is that you can release it quickly. Having to unscrew it and then screw it back again, possibly to a different tension is a waste of time considering that a properly done up QR will be safe, lawyer tabs or not.

Having said that, I was just curious. It's not something that keeps me awake at night. Perhaps I shouldn't have bought a US bike (mine's a Giant) .

I don't agree about stupidity. Failing to do up your QR's is human error, you may brand it as stupid, but it is an error rather than a poor (stupid) choice, humans will err. In life we have many devices to prevent harms in the case of error (you don't want stall alarms on aircraft, for example?).

Calling them lawyer tabs does not mean they are purely to avoid litigation, and indeed this is just a slang term for them.

In terms of quick release, they are still quick release because you don't need a spanner to undo them. The extra time it takes is in my experience, no more than a second.

I presume you must be racing if this time is so crucial.

alfablue

drlodge wrote:

lotus49 wrote:

The whole point of a quick release is that you can release it quickly. Having to unscrew it and then screw it back again, possibly to a different tension is a waste of time considering that a properly done up QR will be safe, lawyer tabs or not.

This----^ Why are there not lawyer tabs on the rear wheels though, they too have the same quick release mechanism and therefore pose the same "risk"?

No, they don't: a rear wheel is also retained by virtue of the chain, also many rear drop outs are forward facing, plus, if the rear wheel were to fail in any way the consequences are going top be less severe.

I remember seeing my son go over his bars after is unsecured front wheel came out (this was in the days prior to tabs) :oops: I own up, it was my fault.

davidof

Both my racing bikes have them. I thought they were stupid. Then I rode back from work one day, Geneva to Chambery, about 105km, and when I got home realized I hadn't tightened the front wheel (I had to remove it on the train due to space reasons). So now I'm not sure, maybe if they were not there I would take more care with my bike.