Training has gone up the spout

Nick Fitt

Well I thought I was doing OK, but the last week or two has been horrific. Anyone training outdoors through this weather front?

danowat

Yes, one day off the bike in November (so far), although I think we have been fairly lucky with the weather, only a bit of wind and rain here.

okgo

Today my 7th day off in November. Haven't really started 'training' yet anyway. Nearly 4 months till the race season starts, long time that. And that is if I don't get bored and race through winter again which I might.

danowat

My training for 2013 started a week after my last race in 2012..........

okgo

I suppose it depends on what your riding is like when you're not 'training'.

Also depends on your goals I reckon, so your goals as a TT rider will be different to mine as a road racer, and it will take you longer to perhaps build your FTP than it will me to lose a few pounds and get a few weeks of intervals in before the start of the season...

danowat

All my cycling is training, I don't cycle for "fun" (as many others do) I cycle to compete, without competition I wouldn't cycle.

So yes, I guess I am a bit of an anomily.

okgo

I'm with you on that.

disgruntledgoat

Not missed a day so far.

Mind you with 3x 1 hour on the turbo and a 2.5-3 hour ride saturday and sunday, you'd be worried if you couldn't stick to that!

amaferanga

danowat wrote:

All my cycling is training, I don't cycle for "fun" (as many others do) I cycle to compete, without competition I wouldn't cycle.

So yes, I guess I am a bit of an anomily.

A professional amateur then?

danowat

An amateur amateur at best :P

BeauMaximus

A bit of an eye opener how much some of you ride/train.
This summer, I was in my best shape ever and seemed to be able to maintain it on an interclub 10 TT on Thursday, a 3 hr ride on s Sunday and sometimes an hours hilly blast on a Tuesday eve.
Soon dropped away though after i throttled back to a ride a fortnight through sept/oct after my 12hr.
Started back to a weekly club turbo session and the Sunday ride This month, hoping to go up a level again in fitness next summer before tackling the tour du mont blanc.

SBezza

I wouldn't worry about a few days lost to the weather, though if it is that bad I just get on the turbo instead. Luckily in the East of the country we have had it a bit easier with the really bad weather. Probably lose more days with the cold in the next few months I would suspect.

ju5t1n

I’ve had a good couple of weeks, with 10hrs+ on the road
When it wasn’t actually raining the weather’s been quite nice
I may even race on Saturday, the forecast is for sunshine!

okgo

Yeh, but there's riding the bike, and then there's training isn't there. I've ridden the bike for 11 hours average every single week for the last year (according to Strava), but most of that I would wager is totally wasted

Rodrego Hernandez

danowat wrote:

An amateur amateur at best :P

If your training for 2013 started a week after your last race of 2012 then your training more than most pros!

Maybe you're overtrained if you still see yourself as an amateur amateur?

SBezza

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

danowat wrote:

An amateur amateur at best :P

If your training for 2013 started a week after your last race of 2012 then your training more than most pros!

Maybe you're overtrained if you still see yourself as an amateur amateur?

Most pro's will train 20+ hours a week, no amateur can out train a pro. I didn't really stop training, no real need for a part time cyclist IMO, I had 2 weeks of doing whatever I wanted off plan more to recharge mentally, but I still rode my bike everyday during this time, and did training as part of it.

Maybe people are amateurs by nature of their physical limitations rather than time limitations, not everyone has the ability of a pro rider. There is no way I would ever put out 450 watts for an hour like Wiggo, no matter how hard or how many hours I trained, hence I would never be a pro (bit too old for that now anyhow).

okgo

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

danowat wrote:

An amateur amateur at best :P

If your training for 2013 started a week after your last race of 2012 then your training more than most pros!

Maybe you're overtrained if you still see yourself as an amateur amateur?

I would seriously doubt he is training more than any pros', he might be riding more days at the minute than some, but they certainly will do far more training than the vast majority of amateurs, if you have a full time job its just not possible to ride 40 hours a week, which I am sure a lot of pro's will be approaching. I know Elite riders that have very part time jobs and they get in 25-30 hours a week.

As for amateur amateur, suppose that depends, having seen his times he's not that bad

Regards the ability, I was chatting about this with a chap I know, and he said its quite hard to know where your limit lies in terms of power, it would be great ( I read this on the tt forum) if you could plug yourself in and see what you could get to on 10-20 hours a week

There are amateur riders that are very talented though, especially in the TT scene (as you can't hide in a bunch) to go VERY quickly you need to produce the watts and get a good position, and there are some very impressive riders out there with full time jobs.

danowat

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

danowat wrote:

An amateur amateur at best :P

If your training for 2013 started a week after your last race of 2012 then your training more than most pros!

Maybe you're overtrained if you still see yourself as an amateur amateur?

Over trained? doubtfull, I rarely do more than 15hr's a week.

The reasons I am still an amateur amateur are simply because 2010 was the first time I got on a bike, 2011 was the first time I raced, and 2013 will only be my third season, that and the fact I am quite a lump, I have a lot of work to do to raise my FTP to a level where I can be more competative.

I managed to exceed 22mph avg in the BBAR this year, and my training is pretty much wholey focused to improving on this in 2013, you can't "race" long TT's without putting in the training, and I really can't see the point of doing months and months of pottling around the lanes, or taking it easy, when I can be putting those hours to a better use.

I'm not a bad rider, there are lots slower than me, but there are also lots faster than me, but to be the best I can, it means I have to put in the graft, I am not an atheletically gifted rider, and a lot of riders have had a LOT of years riding, when I haven't.

okgo

Would be interested to know what difference time makes, I've also been riding one year, and am at a level where I should be able to go sub 20 next year (talking your language here) on a quick course as my power stands right now, but when does another year of riding become beneficial, and when does experience just become time recycled? As they say about people in industry, sometimes someone who has been in the game has 10 years to his name, but its actually 2 years solid experience repeated 5 times...

SBezza

danowat wrote:

Over trained? doubtfull, I rarely do more than 15hr's a week.

Danny, hours on the bike is not an indication of whether you can get overtrained or not, I know of guys who have become overtrained on 6-8 hours a week. If they have a real demanding job/family life/or other stresses and then hammer themselves silly in that available training time it is very possible to overtrain, the body can only deal with so much stress, and it can't tell the difference between life stresses and training stress.

Hence what I said on the TTF, training harder without thinking about the training might not be the correct thing to do (but that is another story).

SBezza

okgo wrote:

Would be interested to know what difference time makes, I've also been riding one year, and am at a level where I should be able to go sub 20 next year (talking your language here) on a quick course as my power stands right now, but when does another year of riding become beneficial, and when does experience just become time recycled? As they say about people in industry, sometimes someone who has been in the game has 10 years to his name, but its actually 2 years solid experience repeated 5 times...

Aerobic fitness can still be gained several years down the line, I have improved ever since I started racing, and would still expect to improve next year (I will be extremely gutted if I don't improve). Whether that will be reflected in actual times is another thing though, too many variables here to gauge improvement purely on time.

As for a sub 20, having the power is one thing, being aero enough is another thing in TT. You also need good conditions, and even on a fast course like the V718 a sub 20 is never a sure bet (unless you are Hutch, or Jeff )

okgo

Why are you improving though, are you doing the same thing every year?

Yeh sure, that will be my enemy, I think I'm OK in aero stakes, but hard to know for sure, it will be very disappointing if I don't, if I can replicate my turbo 20 min test the other day and I'm not close then I will obviously be as aero as a garage door!!

danowat

SBezza wrote:

danowat wrote:

Over trained? doubtfull, I rarely do more than 15hr's a week.

Danny, hours on the bike is not an indication of whether you can get overtrained or not, I know of guys who have become overtrained on 6-8 hours a week. If they have a real demanding job/family life/or other stresses and then hammer themselves silly in that available training time it is very possible to overtrain, the body can only deal with so much stress, and it can't tell the difference between life stresses and training stress.

Hence what I said on the TTF, training harder without thinking about the training might not be the correct thing to do (but that is another story).

Yes, it's a good point Steve.

SBezza

okgo wrote:

Why are you improving though, are you doing the same thing every year?

Hell no, and I doubt any really good rider does the same thing each year, my coach and I have a good idea of what I respond best to, and what I need to do to reach the level I need to reach to be at my best.

okgo wrote:

Yeh sure, that will be my enemy, I think I'm OK in aero stakes, but hard to know for sure, it will be very disappointing if I don't, if I can replicate my turbo 20 min test the other day and I'm not close then I will obviously be as aero as a garage door!!

To be honest a 20 min turbo test doesn't give you much of a picture, I could do plenty of sub 20 min 10 mile rides on the turbo, but come to racing there are just too many variables for it to give you a good picture. For example I have done a 19:17 on the V718 and later in the year I struggled to get sub 21, enviromental conditions where the most likely cause (windy as hell the second ride), but as the 19:17 was done without a powermeter I can never measure the relative performances fully.

okgo

Do you mean power wise? That is what I was referring to, I didn't mean I'd strapped the speed sensor on and gone off that

But you're right on conditions, they make a huge difference, I did the same course within 4 days, similar power, one just on my road bike, the other with clip on bars, and I was only 4 seconds quicker!

disgruntledgoat

I think one of the joys of being an amateur is you can experiment with your training without pressure and try completely new things.

Since I stopped road racing, for the last 3 years I've divided my racing season into 3 peaks, one for a number of sportives I like to do well in, one for some TTs and the last for Hillclimbs. Due to life stuff and goals moving about, this year, I have to try and reach a level for a lot of different kinds of events at the same time, which has meant approaching everything differently.

It's exciting and a new challenge and thats what keeps me coming back.

SBezza

okgo wrote:

Do you mean power wise? That is what I was referring to, I didn't mean I'd strapped the speed sensor on and gone off that

But you're right on conditions, they make a huge difference, I did the same course within 4 days, similar power, one just on my road bike, the other with clip on bars, and I was only 4 seconds quicker!

Well the power required for a sub 20 can vary massively, so again pretty pointless to try and work it out from a 20 min power test or the like on a turbo. Only real way to do it is to do a 10 mile TT with power and using aerolab work out what your effective cda is and try and extroplate that to riding a fast course, still a bit up in the air IMO, as on the day variables can alter things so much.

SBezza

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think one of the joys of being an amateur is you can experiment with your training without pressure and try completely new things.

Depends on how serious you are, I would be gutted to lose a year experimenting, I put myself under pressure to be the best I can and try and win. I personally don't train for fun (in general it isn't fun at all), I train to be the best I can and although experimentation is part of that admittedly, for me losing time experimenting with the wrong things would be detrimental, and put even more pressure on me.

okgo

SBezza wrote:

okgo wrote:

Do you mean power wise? That is what I was referring to, I didn't mean I'd strapped the speed sensor on and gone off that

But you're right on conditions, they make a huge difference, I did the same course within 4 days, similar power, one just on my road bike, the other with clip on bars, and I was only 4 seconds quicker!

Well the power required for a sub 20 can vary massively, so again pretty pointless to try and work it out from a 20 min power test or the like on a turbo. Only real way to do it is to do a 10 mile TT with power and using aerolab work out what your effective cda is and try and extroplate that to riding a fast course, still a bit up in the air IMO, as on the day variables can alter things so much.

I was kind of going by that thread on the TT forum "what power to break 20 mins", and other TT's I've done, but point taken.Proof in the pudding and all that!

disgruntledgoat

SBezza wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think one of the joys of being an amateur is you can experiment with your training without pressure and try completely new things.

Depends on how serious you are, I would be gutted to lose a year experimenting, I put myself under pressure to be the best I can and try and win. I personally don't train for fun (in general it isn't fun at all), I train to be the best I can and although experimentation is part of that admittedly, for me losing time experimenting with the wrong things would be detrimental, and put even more pressure on me.

I'm pretty serious as well, I like to think. I mean, not as daft as I used to be about it but I do have goals and I do take achieving them seriously. However, for me, the process of preparing myself to get the one day where you can achieve something is the interesting part.

I have quite a process driven brain and I think I'm quite good at, firstly, identifying the physiological demands of an event and then working out how to train myself towards it. I don't mind getting something wrong (in terms of experimenting) as there's always next year.

SBezza

disgruntledgoat wrote:

SBezza wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think one of the joys of being an amateur is you can experiment with your training without pressure and try completely new things.

Depends on how serious you are, I would be gutted to lose a year experimenting, I put myself under pressure to be the best I can and try and win. I personally don't train for fun (in general it isn't fun at all), I train to be the best I can and although experimentation is part of that admittedly, for me losing time experimenting with the wrong things would be detrimental, and put even more pressure on me.

I'm pretty serious as well, I like to think. I mean, not as daft as I used to be about it but I do have goals and I do take achieving them seriously. However, for me, the process of preparing myself to get the one day where you can achieve something is the interesting part.

I have quite a process driven brain and I think I'm quite good at, firstly, identifying the physiological demands of an event and then working out how to train myself towards it. I don't mind getting something wrong (in terms of experimenting) as there's always next year.

That is true, it can be part of the fun I suppose of experimenting. For me I invest alot of time training, and sacrifice alot of family time doing so, so I want to be sure what I am doing does work. I have a coach as I would rather be training than spending what little free time I have trying to work out what is best.