Ultegra or Force?

Beatmaker

After years on Campagnolo I'm building up a Summer bike and fancy a bit of a change. An impending new child dictates I'm limited to second tier groupsets this time, so I'm considering either Shimano Ultegra or SRAM Force. I think Force is a little lighter, and to me has a bit more good bike 'bling' about it, but I'm also half thinking that if I went for Ultegra I might swap out the Ultegra mechs and shifters for Di2 at a later date.

As I've used neither groupset in its current guise, what would you do in my situation?

andyk19

I used to run Force/Rival in a mix, I now use Ultegra. Ultegra is pretty impossible to fault whereas Force is but at the same time Force is lighter and does look very flash, although I think Ultegra does too.

Force/Rival was nice and light but had a couple of niggles, most seriously SRAM front shifting is not good, upshifts are OK (but still not good) and downshifts were terrible; they would involve the chain being quite literally thrown from big to small ring which was very disconcerting under load and sometimes the chain would be dropped. Rear shifting is pretty much on par with Shimano, although not as smooth (but this is nit picking) and I have to say I like the double tap system and the more obvious 'click' when shifting.
The brakes I always found to be good, helped by the fact that SRAM fitted swisstop as standard. The shifter size is also a good fit for smaller hands and I liked the ergonomics.

Ultegra is very well 'polished', front shifts are amazing and the brakes are good, although the stock pads are not as good as the swisstops. One of the highlights is the chainset which is amazingly stiff and gives very slick shifts. The jockey wheels seem to last well, the guide pulley has ceramic bearings; whereas I had to swap the SRAM jockey wheels after about 8 months as the bearings died.

I'm not going to say one or the other, although the fact I now use Ultegra shows where I put my money when I specced my latest bike. They both have positives and negatives and it's just choosing which you'd prefer to have; I must admit to sometimes wondering if I should have had Force (the front shifting still has me thinking I made the right choice with Ultegra though).

As for electical I'm a bit of a bigot in that sense and like my bikes mechanical so have no idea on that - other than I wouldn't.

andyk19

I would also add that the GXP bottom bracket doesn't last as well as Shimano units. I'm not sure how the Red level ceramic BB lasts but at £150 a pop I never wanted to find out.

Hope this all helps.

Sammyw23

But the gxp bb is £20 a pop so if it only lasts 1000 miles then its not too horrific on the wallet?

I was on campagnolo last year and couldn't fault it but never quite got on with the thumb shifters and I think that's the key.

I am on Sram force now with red shifters and for me the ergonomics of the shifters are perfect especially when in the drops.

For others it may be the opposite. I think everyone would argue that shimano or campagnolo are better in the long term but if sram works for you then go for it.

I would add that the sram front mechs are toilet - I will be switching it to shimano ASAP

Beatmaker

andyk19 wrote:

I would also add that the GXP bottom bracket doesn't last as well as Shimano units. I'm not sure how the Red level ceramic BB lasts but at £150 a pop I never wanted to find out.

Hope this all helps.

Thanks for your insight. I've had a GXP Chainset and BB in the past, and you've just jogged my memory of a horrific issue I had with the BB, so that's definitely one area Shimano wins out.

Beatmaker

Sammyw23 wrote:

I would add that the sram front mechs are toilet - I will be switching it to shimano ASAP

I was thinking of upgrading the front mech to the new SRAM Red which I believe is a vast improvement, but then I'm trying to do this on the cheap, so perhaps Ultegra is a safer bet.

andyk19

The new Red front mech may be a good call, but I can't say how well it would work having never used it. It would be worth checking compatibility as whilst I would have thought it would be fine new generation Red is a bit of a change from the last and given the price you don't want to buy it and for it not to work.

If you're on a budget you could always use the Force one for a bit and switch when funds allow?

andyk19

Would you be using a press fit or threaded BB? Just as Sammyw23 says it's not too expensive or difficult to swap a BB if it's a threaded type, so it need not be a deal breaker. If you're using pressfit then having to swap a BB every 1000 miles might be quite an issue.

Beatmaker

andyk19 wrote:

The new Red front mech may be a good call, but I can't say how well it would work having never used it. It would be worth checking compatibility as whilst I would have thought it would be fine new generation Red is a bit of a change from the last and given the price you don't want to buy it and for it not to work.

If you're on a budget you could always use the Force one for a bit and switch when funds allow?

Officially it's not supposed to work. In practice it does apparently.

Would you be using a press fit or threaded BB? Just as Sammyw23 says it's not too expensive or difficult to swap a BB if it's a threaded type, so it need not be a deal breaker. If you're using pressfit then having to swap a BB every 1000 miles might be quite an issue.

It's a standard BSA bottom bracket shell. Decisions, decisions!

Routier

I run Force and find that if you set the front mech up properly it shifts perfectly. Also AIUI the problem with GXP BBs relates to earlier ones and not the ones made now.

I love the stuff, the brakes are stronger than Shimano and I prefer the shifting as I never liked having to move the whole brake lever with Ultegra. Apples and oranges though really, they're both great groups.

mroli

I ride the range of Sram sets from Apex up to Force and think they're all great. I just get on with the double tap system and the hoods and don't have a problem with my front shifting. Having said that, I also have ridden Tiagra - Ultegra and if someone "made" me ride Shimano, I don't think I'd have a problem either.

I really think Groupsets are a matter of personal opinion and you should ride some and see what you think.

Bozman

I've got a mate who purchased his first Sram equipped bike after spending years with Shimano, he's given that bike 3 months and he's stripping the Force off and replacing it with Ultegra. He can't get on with the shifters and the front mech is a pig.
I doubt he'll be pleased with Ultegra because that's taken a step back with 6700.

rozzer32

I use Force and absolutely love it. The hoods suit my hands. I find the braking excellent. My front shifting is shot on, OK it might be a little bit trickier to set up but I find it shifts perfectly. The only way I'd move away from Sram is to go electric.

But I'd definitely recommend trying out the different hoods. I had Shimano before and didn't like the brake/shift lever combination and I didn't like the Campag hoods, so I was left with an easy choice really.

Sammyw23

The main thing that puts me off Shimano shifters is all that dead space before the shift comes in. With my Red zero loss its instant. Thats a deal breaker for me, I don't care if the gruppo is not quite as clinical as shimano.

On that point, if you end up going for SRAM Force you might want to wait for the 2013 model as they are putting the zero loss on the rear shifter as per red. Not sure of prices, it may be loads more than 2012.

passout

I've had both & both are great. Personally I prefer SRAM's double tap system so I'd go for that. I thought front shifting was about the same TBH. I do really like the feel of shimano brakes though....

cougie

I've Force and Ultegra - er and Dura Ace too. I prefer the Shimano systems - probably just because I've spent more time on them. If I had to choose I'd go Ultegra.

If I was new to cycling - then either would be fine.

bisoner

I've got SRAM Rival and it's just agro setting it up and keeping it running sweetly. I'm in the process of changing over to 105 shifters and a 105 rear derraileur. Shimano just works and is more reliable IMHO. The Rival stuff will be sold.

I have DA on my Canyon and borrowed a friends bike with Ultegra. This convinced me Shimano is the way to go and unless you are really concerned about weight, 105, Ultegra and DA are all great groupsets.

Saying all this, when SRAM does work, it works well. The hoods are also marginally more comfortable than Shimano's but I've found after a while of using Shimano you forget.

Alex_Bath1598

I've got a BB30 Sram Force setup. It's very precise, reasonably stiff and the brakes are good. I would wait until the 2013 model year because the front chainrings are going to be slightly stiffer and the rear is adopting zero-loss.

Alex_Bath1598

Also, try adding a Dura-Ace chain. It improves the shift quality and smoothness.

mroli

bisoner wrote:

I've got SRAM Rival and it's just agro setting it up and keeping it running sweetly.

Which is really interesting because I've got SRAM Rival on a bike and I have done JOGLE, 100 Climbs book, race on it and use it for everything in all weathers and haven't touched it and it is still sweet.
Agree though that the quality of groupsets you can get for not a massive outlay is fantastic.

passout

mroli wrote:

bisoner wrote:

I've got SRAM Rival and it's just agro setting it up and keeping it running sweetly.

Which is really interesting because I've got SRAM Rival on a bike and I have done JOGLE, 100 Climbs book, race on it and use it for everything in all weathers and haven't touched it and it is still sweet.
Agree though that the quality of groupsets you can get for not a massive outlay is fantastic.

I agree - I just clean /change the chain & check brake pads / cable tension on my SRAM stuff. Just keeps running without the need for fettling. Pretty bomb proof I reckon. Shimano stuff is pretty good in this regard too.

Beatmaker

Thanks for all the advice, I've decided to go for a SRAM Force / Red mix.

ricky1980

red shifters and front derailleur force for the rest, but be sure to get the 2012 versions of the front derailleur as that has the Yaw technology so that the front shifting is smooth and no chain rubbing etc so I think the issue of setting it properly is eliminated. The older red shifters can also operate the new FD but the old shifters has a trim function so there is 1 more click. if you don't want that sort of things then get the 2012 shifters.

bike-discount seems to be doing a good price on the shifters

jonomc4

I run a Red / Force mix - and have no issues with it - in fact I feel I may be falling in love with it

Often it annoys me that people can't set up something because they are a mechanical dickheads and then go on to blame the product. Nothing works unless you take the time to set it up right in the first place - RTFM it is real simple.