Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Newfish

Firstly I'd like to say that I know that as a cyclist we are supposed to obey the same rules of the road as cars.

However, do we? The other day I was shouted at for jumping a red light. Now I am fully aware that we should adhere to the rules of the road, however as a cyclist we can usually sit further forward than cars at lights and see when they are going to change before car drivers, so I personally don't see any problem with jumping the light if it is going to change anyhow and being out of the way for when the cars move off.

There is also the long pedestrian crossing lights debate, now if there are lots of pedestrians walking across and it's not safe then of course stop, but if there is one person crossing then what is the harm in slowly rolling through and getting on your way.

The other thing, whilst I'm at it, that has frustrated me since starting cycling again is cycle paths. I'm not talking about the ones that weave through the country side but the red strip by the main road. How is it that they have made these so uneven? I haven't been shouted at yet, but give it time, but given the choice I prefer to ride on the road which invariably is much smoother than the cycle path that is like riding on rumble strips, and I have a HT not a road bike!

What are people's thoughts? What would you change to make cycling better or safer?

miss notax

Hmmmm.

Personally, I think that those cyclists that DON'T obey the rules of the road are playing right into the hands of all the anti-cycling folk who think we are all prats.....

Maybe i'm just a bit old fashioned but I always obey the rules of the road - they are rules for a reason. Otherwise what's the point?!!

anton1r

Newfish wrote:

....
The other day I was shouted at for jumping a red light. Now I am fully aware that we should adhere to the rules of the road, however as a cyclist we can usually sit further forward than cars at lights and see when they are going to change before car drivers, so I personally don't see any problem with jumping the light if it is going to change anyhow and being out of the way for when the cars move off.

It's wrong but I go on amber too, never had any abuse for it but I reckon drivers are just happy to have you out the way. Though it does depends how early you jump.

Newfish wrote:

There is also the long pedestrian crossing lights debate, now if there are lots of pedestrians walking across and it's not safe then of course stop, but if there is one person crossing then what is the harm in slowly rolling through and getting on your way.

Not really acceptable you never know when a ped will appear from nowhere and step out to cross on a green man, in which case it's all your fault.

Newfish wrote:

The other thing, whilst I'm at it, that has frustrated me since starting cycling again is cycle paths. I'm not talking about the ones that weave through the country side but the red strip by the main road. How is it that they have made these so uneven? I haven't been shouted at yet, but give it time, but given the choice I prefer to ride on the road which invariably is much smoother than the cycle path that is like riding on rumble strips, and I have a HT not a road bike!

Sounds like you've got some terrible cycleways. the worst of them around here is when a drain cover takes a decent % of it up. There's no requirement for you to cycle in them just because they are provided.

All IMO of course, I'm no model cyclist. I know I do some things I probably shouldn't but I've never had any grief for them, My mantra is to ride courteously and defensively.

EH_Rob

It's not that clear cut for me. In some situations I think it's better to just get clear of a junction or whatever before cars start to move, if I can see its safe then I might go. Or I might not. In other situations it's better to wait. Common sense is the key thing - most people here in Edinburgh (drivers and cyclists) seem to have it, and generally speaking everyone gets on ok. Never had a problem really.

At the risk of generalising (ah well) I think that quite a lot of the anti-cycling folk don't really care whether cyclists obey the rules or not - they'll whinge and moan about cyclists whatever. If they're not whinging about cyclists (or the congestion that would result if everyone drove a car) they'll likely be found whinging about petrol prices, immigration, or banks, racism in football, PPI phonecalls etc. Or how fat they are.

miss notax

EH_Rob wrote:

At the risk of generalising (ah well) I think that quite a lot of the anti-cycling folk don't really care whether cyclists obey the rules or not - they'll whinge and moan about cyclists whatever. If they're not whinging about cyclists (or the congestion that would result if everyone drove a car) they'll likely be found whinging about petrol prices, immigration, or banks, racism in football, PPI phonecalls etc. Or how fat they are.

welshkev

I'll be honest when i used to ride to work i'd go through red/amber lights - obviously not at busy junctions, but at junctions where i could see it wasn't dangerous.

i did have a guy see me do it once and deliberatly try and knock me off the bike - how do i know he was trying to do it? because he stopped and told me so...cnut!

i also had a bin lorry try and run me over because apparently "he had more right to be there and cyclists shouldn't be on the road" i did ask that guy if he'd like to explain that to me around the corner whilst shouting obsenities to him - he refused...not my best moment i admit

jonomc4

I follow simple rules - Obey all the rules of the road

except

1) I will go over a pedestrian crossing when the lights are red if no one is on it - if there is even a single person I stop - also on Zebra crossings I stop if someone is waiting to cross.

2 At junctions I sop at red lights but I will make a left turn - but only if there is not a motorbike, bike, lorry or bus coming from the other way as these vehicles tend to be more on the left.

I sometimes hate sitting at lights waiting for them to change when I know I could easily and safely go through them - but I stay there not for me but to help all cyclist not get a bad rep - no matter how safe it is, the drivers waiting there will just see a cyclist going through a red whilst they are stuck there and they will hate you for it.

Ginjafro

I prefer to obay the rules and not RLJ. I don't do it whilst driving so why should I when I cycle. Also, ask yourself this question: What are you going to do with those few seconds you saved RLJing and reinforcing the image of poorly disciplined cyclists, save the world, right a book, learn another language? Seriously, I don't see the point in rushing about and saving the odd second here or there. If your late your late, so what.

EH_Rob

Ginjafro wrote:

I prefer to obay the rules and not RLJ. I don't do it whilst driving so why should I when I cycle. Also, ask yourself this question: What are you going to do with those few seconds you saved RLJing and reinforcing the image of poorly disciplined cyclists, save the world, right a book, learn another language? Seriously, I don't see the point in rushing about and saving the odd second here or there. If your late your late, so what.

Time waits for no man, unless that man is Chuck Norris.

Seriously though, I don't care if I'm late, I just think there are situations where its better if the cyclist can move off before traffic as long as its safe for them to do so. To not do that for the sake of not wanting to jump a red light (the pattern of which has been designed mainly with motor vehicles in mind) and possibly annoy someone (who is pretty intolerant if that sort of thing is enough to annoy them) doesn't make any sense to me.

njee20

RLJers deserve to be flattened by a lorry. People who ride through at 0.5mph and then nonchalantly continue as though it was fine are just penises.

If you don't ride the way you drive (including pedestrian crossings and left turning on red) then you can't really expect any respect from drivers.

The police have been stopping and fining riders in London the last few weeks, brilliant idea IMO. Selfish dicks.

And breathe.

EH_Rob

I can't think of anything positive or nice to say so I won't bother unless this moves to the CC. To be fair there is an entire forum elsewhere for this.

alfablue

anton1r wrote:

Newfish wrote:

....
The other day I was shouted at for jumping a red light. Now I am fully aware that we should adhere to the rules of the road, however as a cyclist we can usually sit further forward than cars at lights and see when they are going to change before car drivers, so I personally don't see any problem with jumping the light if it is going to change anyhow and being out of the way for when the cars move off.

It's wrong but I go on amber too, never had any abuse for it but I reckon drivers are just happy to have you out the way. Though it does depends how early you jump.

Incredibly stupid! Have you ever considered that drivers / cyclists at the other set of lights may be taking similar risks by failing to stop on amber (or red)? At some point you will collide with a similarly stupid road user :?

Where I live its not even safe to go on green because of RLJers, both two and four wheeled!!!! :evil:

njee20

Shhhh! It's natural selection, leave 'em to it :-)

alfablue

:oops: whoops, I forgot

supersonic

No wonder drivers have a bad image of cyclists. If a car was to do it there would be an uproar.

Greer_

I always obey the rules of the road. If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to complain about all the cyclists giving us a bad name!

Woodmonkey

Rules are made to be broken, on bike or in car/van. :twisted:

alfablue

Woodmonkey wrote:

Rules are made to be broken, on bike or in car/van. :twisted:

Wow, that's deep dude :roll:

cooldad

Woodmonkey wrote:

Rules are made to be broken, on bike or in car/van. :twisted:

Presumably you still have a few more years on Playstation before you hit puberty.

Woodmonkey

What's a play station?

Ouija

Always used to wait at lights until a year ago, when some clever sod in traffic management thought it would be a good idea to have all the traffic lights on the main road in and out of town default to being on red, only changing to green when a car came along and triggered the sensor (instead of defaulting to green and switching to red when traffic from side lanes wanted to get out).

Not a problem during the day time as the constant traffic keeps the lights green most of the time. But at 11.00pm at night, when there's not a car to be seen anywhere, you'll be sitting at the lights a hell of a long time because they simply don't register the presence of cyclists and i'm buggered if i'm going to sit there for 30 minutes for a car to come along and change them.

Doesn't help that the council also recently removed all the roundabouts along the route to replace them with traffic lights that are supposed to make things flow better (it doesn't).

bails87

supersonic wrote:

No wonder drivers have a bad image of cyclists. If a car was to do it there would be an uproar.

I'm sorry Super, but that's absolute rubbish. Go to any busy junction (round here anyway) and within one light cycle you'll see a car drive through a red light when he/she could have easily stopped. And probably a couple on every amber too. As for the number of drivers speeding or talking on phones, texting, using computers, reading books or newspapers, or maps, or having a shave(!), as for passing cyclists too close.....drivers break the law all the time, it's just accepted. Going to welshkev's story above, when did you last see a driver attack another driver because they were using their mobile, or because they'd driven into an ASL on a red light?

That said, don't RLJ, it's stupid. I don't see a huge number of cyclists around here, most things that I see that they've done wrong are matters of stupidity rather than deliberate law-breaking. So riding down the left of big vehicles, they just followed the cycle-lane, not knowing that it might kill them. Or morons with no lights. But I've been nearly wiped out on a number of occasions (in the car and on the bike) when I've stopped at a red/amber light and the car behind me has accelerated to get through the junction.

If no cyclists RLJed then we'd get abuse for not paying road tax (oddly enough, the drivers who shout this don't ever shout the same abuse at disabled drivers or the police ), and if we did that and all had insurance then we'd get abuse for simply being in the way.

A report from the Transport Research Laboratory and University of Strathclyde a few years ago led by Lynn Basford suggested that there’s some classic social psychology at work here – cyclists represent an outgroup such that the usual outgroup effects are seen, particularly overgeneralisation of negative behaviour and attributes – ‘They all ride through red lights all the time’. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that something of this sort is going on.

“However, there has to be more to it than just this. For a long time I wondered if the outgroup status of cyclists was compounded by two other known social psychological factors: norms and majority vs. minority groups. Not only are cyclists an outgroup, they’re also a minority outgroup. Moreover, they are engaging in an activity that is deemed slightly inappropriate in a culture that views driving as normative and desirable and, arguably, views cycling as anti- conventional and possibly even infantile.

“But even adding these factors into the mix does not explain all the anger that cyclists experience. It’s easy to identify other minority outgroups whose behaviour similarly challenges social norms but who do not get verbally and physically attacked like cyclists do: vegetarians, for example. So there’s clearly one or more important variables that we’ve not identified yet. Any social psychologists looking for a challenge are very welcome to wade into this.”

http://quickrelease.tv/?p=1763

supersonic

What's rubbish? Drivers having a bad image of cyclists because of RLJing? They do. A car jumping a red light causing an uproar? Happens far, far less, but when it does people are quick on it on the forums. At least 'around here'.

I can't remember the last time I saw a car jump a red light. I can remember dozens of cyclists. And no, texting etc is not accepted either, that is absurd - and does in no way condone how a cyclist may operate.

Fact is the cyclists which jump red lights are plain stupid. Many cyclists seem to think it is acceptable, even a bit funny, daring or whatever, but it is idiotic, breaks the law and reinforces the image of cyclists as a whole. Cars do it and cyclists kick off alarmingly. That is my point.

bails87

supersonic wrote:

What's rubbish? Drivers having a bad image of cyclists because of RLJing? They do.

I know, or at least it's an excuse, I wasn't arguing with that

A car jumping a red light causing an uproar? Happens far, far less, but when it does people are quick on it on the forums. At least 'around here'.

I can't remember the last time I saw a car jump a red light. I can remember dozens of cyclists.

Like I said, there simply aren't many cyclists around here, and my commute is pretty rural, so I simply don't see many lights for them to jump. The bits of road that do have lights are so hostile (I tried it once) that no-one rides a bike on them. I seem to remember a tfl survey that found that there was a similar rate of RLJing drivers as RLJing cyclists, even in that London, I'll try to find it.

I was on one of them the other week actually, in traffic in the car, doing 25-30mph approaching a traffic light at a big crossroads. The cars were pretty well matched up in pairs (I was in lane 2 and next to a car in lane 1, same for the several cars in front of me, all doing the same speed). The lights changed to amber, one car in each lane went through, but they probably didn't have time to safely stop so that's fine. Then the second car and third cars in the lane next to me came to a gentle stop at the red light, while the two cars next to them, in my lane, just carried on through the junction. I slowed down quite gently, as I now had extra space because the cars in front had amber gambled/ RLJed, and as I did the bloke in the crappy fiesta behind me must have just been watching the lights and not me because he accelerated, expecting me to jump the lights as well. He then slammed the brakes on and stopped a couple of cms from the back of my car. If he was on a bike he'd have been able to go around me and RLJ, but cars generally have to stop when the one in front of them does.

And no, texting etc is not accepted either, that is absurd - and does in no way condone how a cyclist may operate.

It wasn't a 'they break the law so I can too' type of thing, I was just saying that it's pretty widely ignored from what I've seen. It's rare that I drive anywhere and don't see several drivers phoning or texting.

Fact is the cyclists which jump red lights are plain stupid. Many cyclists seem to think it is acceptable, even a bit funny, daring or whatever, but it is idiotic, breaks the law and reinforces the image of cyclists as a whole. Cars do it and cyclists kick off alarmingly. That is my point.

And the bit in bold can't be said about many drivers who break the speed limit?

Not that I disagree with it. RLJers (bybike or car)are tw*ts. Just like all the other law breakers on the road. It shouldn't be cyclists vs cars it should be b3llends vs people who pay attention and obey the law.

njee20

I seem to remember a tfl survey that found that there was a similar rate of RLJing drivers as RLJing cyclists, even in that London, I'll try to find it.

The trouble was that the figures were drivers caught on camera vs cyclists physically apprehended by a watching police officer - ie far fewer.

Yes cars RLJ, but it's generally accelerating through an amber and catching red by a second or so, plenty of cyclists (and I mean plenty in London) simply bimble through the lights whether they've been red for 1 second or 20. That enrages car drivers and we get tarred with that brush.

It's a retarded thing to do, I fully support the police fining people for doing it, and have little sympathy for riders injured doing it.

concorde

You're on a road therefore obey the rules of said road! The ones that drive on the road then mount the pavement at lights go through then go back on to the road the otherside wind me up too, they're technically not doing anything illegal but it shows their mentality... the cunt mentality!

stubs

I see plenty of red light jumping cars and vans round my way. Not so many cyclists do it simply because natural selection soon gets rid of the RLJ cyclists. I do find that cyclists in major towns and cities are there own worst enemies and last time I was in London I nearly got flattened by a goatee beard wearing twat who was blasting down a pedestrians only path.

How it can work can be seen in the Netherlands cycles rule and cars give way to you there are cycling paths everywhere joining up towns. Also you will see some of the fittest babes in the world pedalling along and happy to stop and chat to fat sweaty hungover Brits who are lost.

Daz555

It is of course annoying that we have to slow down and stop for so many red lights - it is no effort for a car driver to stop and start in contrast.

I'd like to see one change to our traffic light rules - namley that you can turn left at a red light if it is safe to do so. They use this system in some US states (right turn for them of course).

njee20

Yep, I do agree with the left turn on red, and it works (fairly) well in the US, but it's not up to cyclists to make that decision IMO.

Chunkers1980

If only common sense was er..... Common.

My view is cars are killing machines, rules are there for good reason.

If common sense was universal, bikes could do as they please, it is just it's not.

njee20

If common sense was universal, everyone could do as they please, it is just it's not.

FTFY.