It's too dangerous to cycle after dark! Really?

marcruse
marcruse Posts: 64
edited November 2012 in Road general
In some recent correspondence with a certain Internet based cycle shop, I enquired if it was possible to retro fit some British Standard reflectors to the SPD pedals they had sold me so as to make me completely "street legal" after dark. (I'm just worried about the "contributory negligence" charge for not being 100% street legal). I was amazed at their response -"it is the case that many commuters/leisure road cyclists do not ride after dark, due to these conditions being inherently dangerous" and therefore they couldn't help! It begs the question that if the think that's true, why does the front page of their website say "BE SEEN THIS WINTER"!, but aside from that - are they right?

Personally, when lit up like a Christmas Tree I actually feel safer than during daylight. Do others agree?
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Comments

  • NewTTer
    NewTTer Posts: 463
    I worry that you are also a little bit anal, concering yourself with contributory negligence for not having pedal reflectors fitted, they were probably thinking the same but were to polite to say so. Life really is to short mate stop worrying and enjoy it!
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    They're just fobbing you off.

    I doubt your pedals can be fitted with reflectors. They're not supplied with the bike are they so they're completely legal
    like that.

    I'd much rather trust my safety to some nice bright lights and if you feel the need - get some 3M Diamond Grade reflective tape and apply liberally to pedals etc. Reflectives are fine if the angle is right - and the car has its lights on - but if its a car coming at you from a side road - pedal reflectors wont help.
  • marcruse
    marcruse Posts: 64
    Fair point Newtter. When I say worry, that probably a bit strong. Frankly I don't give a monkey's, it doesn't stop me, and I was just enquiring whether it was possible - if it was I'd have fitted them to be absolutely sure. I don't doubt that all the other reflective bits on me and my bike make sure I'm seen, but you hear of these smartarse lawyers who can wriggle out of anything. It's an archaic law that says you have to have them to be legal and if anything it's the law that should be changed. Maybe I'll get our new Crime Commissioner to look into it, ha ha.
  • steve6690
    steve6690 Posts: 190
    Can't you strap some reflectors to your shoes ? :D
  • smidsy
    smidsy Posts: 5,273
    NewTTer wrote:
    I worry that you are also a little bit anal, concering yourself with contributory negligence for not having pedal reflectors fitted, they were probably thinking the same but were to polite to say so. Life really is to short mate stop worrying and enjoy it!

    He's probably from the USA originally :wink:
    Yellow is the new Black.
  • craker
    craker Posts: 1,739
    One set of my double sided SPDs (M520s) came with a clip in platform with reflectors on each end so they were 'legal' and left one free clip mechanism. Take the platform off to restore two in sides.

    I often wear reflective bands on my ankles this time of year - in the dark something reflective moving up and down grabs your attention much more than a stationary light.
  • marcruse
    marcruse Posts: 64
    Yep, yep yep agree with all that. Reflective straps, reflective stickers all great. However, they still don't comply with the law. It's a bit like driving a car with no brakes and then when you have an accident arguing that you had an anchor in the boot. Well, ok not quite, but my point is that a smartarse lawyer could quite easily argue that you were cycling unlawfully irrespective of how many lights and reflective stickers you had, if you didn't have Britsh Standard reflectors on your pedals. That's what the law says. CTC seem to agree.
  • DavidJB
    DavidJB Posts: 2,019
    Lol at this. No ones going to get off because you didn't have reflectors on your pedals if you're we'll lit
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    if a 1 ton of car hits you at night because he didnt see you... then contributory negligence whatever will be the last thing on your mind.
  • t.m.h.n.e.t
    t.m.h.n.e.t Posts: 2,265
    mamba80 wrote:
    if a 1 ton of car hits you at night because he didnt see you... then contributory negligence whatever will be the last thing on your mind.
    The last thing on your mind,would probably be your ass. But if you were wearing a helmet, this risk may be reduced :lol::lol:

    Bit OTT getting in a bit of a flap about some reflectors isn't it?
  • danowat
    danowat Posts: 2,877
    I'd argue, with proper lights, cycling at night is safer........
  • john1967
    john1967 Posts: 366
    my bike didnt even come with pedals let alone reflectors on the pedals.Does that mean my bike was illegal when i bought it?
  • craker
    craker Posts: 1,739
    john1967 wrote:
    my bike didnt even come with pedals let alone reflectors on the pedals.Does that mean my bike was illegal when i bought it?

    No, that's why the bike shop sold you those bike parts. If it was a complete bike (I think) it would have spoke reflectors, front & rear reflectors, pedal reflectors, a bell. I bet Wiggo's last bike didn't have all that on it. But then he pranged it didn't he...
  • essjaydee
    essjaydee Posts: 917
    But has anyone ever been convicted of cycling 'unlawfully' because they didn't have BS marked reflectors :?:

    Understand where you are coming from with wanting to be 100% legal at all times, but don't worry about BS marked reflectors :!:
    Light yourself up like a xmas tree, and get out there in the dark and enjoy :)
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  • marcruse
    marcruse Posts: 64
    T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    if a 1 ton of car hits you at night because he didnt see you... then contributory negligence whatever will be the last thing on your mind.
    The last thing on your mind,would probably be your ass. But if you were wearing a helmet, this risk may be reduced :lol::lol:

    Or, the last thing through your helmet, would be your helmet??
  • pippi_langsamer-2
    pippi_langsamer-2 Posts: 1,470
    danowat wrote:
    I'd argue, with proper lights, cycling at night is safer........

    Damn right! Decent lights and some 3M, I feel much safer knowing I look like a Xmas tree rolling down the road rather than just another random attribute blending into a drivers field of view in daylight.
  • duckehhh
    duckehhh Posts: 7
    I go past a police station on my way home from work, and have had many coppers comment on my good lighting at the traffic lights. none have ever said anything about my lack of pedal reflectors(I use m520's).

    I do have a high viz slap ankle band around each ankle though. That's better than nothing, and its all around the ankle, not just the front/back like the reflectors of the pedal.
  • Mettan
    Mettan Posts: 2,103
    In addition to lights etc, it's worth putting some high viz reflective tape on the back of your helmet - I've done mine ''tastefully'' (for want of a better word) - (the vents silver, and slats lemon) - looks good.
  • team47b
    team47b Posts: 6,425
    It's a slippery slope...

    http://www.ecouterre.com/dashing-tweeds ... ds-suit-1/
    :shock:
    my isetta is a 300cc bike
  • cookeeemonster
    cookeeemonster Posts: 1,991
    I had the same questions a little while ago (worried about the same thing, and have m520's).

    To make things worse shimano brought out these recently: http://road.cc/content/news/63565-just-shimano-click%E2%80%99r-pedals - they seem pretty perfect :) (but as I only bought the m520's a couple of months ago I cant justify buying these so soon...maybe when the price comes down in a sale)
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Diamond-Gr ... e9f&_uhb=1

    There you go Cookee - saved you some cash there...
  • racingcondor
    racingcondor Posts: 1,434
    The only road pedals I've seen with reflectors were my old Time RXS which had two little screw on reflectors in the bag.

    Personally I would hope that my reflective Hump rucksack cover would lead to any lawyer arguing that my lack of other reflectors (in a rear end accident) mattered would get laughed out of court.
  • whitebirdyman
    whitebirdyman Posts: 29
    I have the Shimano reflector platforms mentioned earlier in this thread by Craker. I bought a pair of M520 pedals from ebay as a split pack w/o cleats and surprisingly they came with the platform. I left them on as just using that bike for local trips and doing longer runs on another. It is a nuisance losing the double-sided clip facility but the platforms are ok. However, I do not think the reflectors add anything to night time visibility if you already have reflective gear and lights.

    I think that rather than the dark, one of the biggest hazards in winter is the low sun on a clear day which causes glare and gets in drivers eyes just before the sun goes down. Maybe I was being a little over-cautious, but I cut a ride short last week as I realised I could not see into the sun, so probably drivers behind might struggle to see me - lights and reflectors would not help much in that situation.

    WBM
  • barrowmatt
    barrowmatt Posts: 104
    john1967 wrote:
    my bike didnt even come with pedals let alone reflectors on the pedals.Does that mean my bike was illegal when i bought it?

    If you rode it without pedals then possibly :lol:
  • lotus49
    lotus49 Posts: 763
    In the case of contributory negligence the important aspect that the court would consider is not whether you were legal or not but whether what you did or did not do materially contributed to either the likelihood of the accident taking place in the first place or the extent of your injury.

    Since pedal reflectors make almost no practical difference then whether you had them or not is not relevant. If you were lit up like a Christmas tree, pedal reflectors would absolutely not make you more materially more visible so the fact that you should have been using them to comply with the law but were not, would not be contributory negligence.
  • diy
    diy Posts: 6,473
    Pedal reflectors are a legal requirement, if the bike is ridden after dark. Bike shop is taking a self interest stance by saying effectively that they sold you pedals for day time use. Otherwise they are opening themselves up to some liability. There probably is a contributory negligence angle to be honest. However, I think you may have some challenges if the claimant was lit up like Xmas tree. Problem is there will be plenty of experts who will argue that moving reflectors make a big difference in visually recognising a cycle. Then it's not a big leap to say because there were no refectory moving with the pedals, I didn't realise the rider was on the road and moving. The only angle I could see is having some components on the bike pre 1985.
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  • unixnerd
    unixnerd Posts: 2,864
    One set of my double sided SPDs (M520s) came with a clip in platform with reflectors on each end so they were 'legal' and left one free clip mechanism. Take the platform off to restore two in sides.

    So did mine. If I'm driving and see pedals with reflectors in the distance it lets me know I'm looking at a slow moving cyclist, not a motorbike. I always run a set at night.
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  • cookeeemonster
    cookeeemonster Posts: 1,991
    cougie wrote:
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Diamond-Grade-Reflective-Tape-Yellow-4-50-Per-Metre-/300815986335?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVehicleParts_SM&hash=item460a07ae9f&_uhb=1

    There you go Cookee - saved you some cash there...

    cheers - if there was anywhere on the m520's to put that I'd seriously buy it :)
  • unixnerd
    unixnerd Posts: 2,864
    Try these:
    http://www.windwave.co.uk/windwave/2961139001.html
    or these:
    http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/shimano- ... 71885.html
    http://www.strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible Price.
    Specialized Roubaix SL3 Expert 2012, Cannondale CAAD5,
    Marin Mount Vision (1997), Edinburgh Country tourer, 3 cats!
  • marcruse
    marcruse Posts: 64
    lotus49 wrote:
    In the case of contributory negligence the important aspect that the court would consider is not whether you were legal or not but whether what you did or did not do materially contributed to either the likelihood of the accident taking place in the first place or the extent of your injury.

    Since pedal reflectors make almost no practical difference then whether you had them or not is not relevant. If you were lit up like a Christmas tree, pedal reflectors would absolutely not make you more materially more visible so the fact that you should have been using them to comply with the law but were not, would not be contributory negligence.

    Not wishing to be morbid here, but being lit up like a Christmas Tree is probably not much help "after the event". If you're in a heap at the roadside with a twisted bike, it would be hard to prove that in the circumstances immediately before the accident, the lighting and other reflectors were adequate. The BMW driver (bound to be a BMW driver!) could argue that the particular conditions still made the cyclist difficult to see. Smartarse Lawyer would then argue contributory negligence through lack of pedal reflectors.

    If you are in court defending your position, being a lawbreaker (through not having pedal reflectors) is hardly going to help your case.

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