Another wheels question

wishitwasallflat

Ok no factory builds I am defo going to get a set of hand built, 36 hole (I weigh 19 st) - the options currently in the running are -

Paul Hewitt advised - Mavic Open Pro, 105 Hubs, Plain gauge spokes ds, doubled butted nds - about £250 posted

Harry Rowland advised the same at the same price.

ugo (our resident wheel builder suggested) - Velocity Deep Vs, same hubs for about the same price.

Strada suggested same hubs and spokes but H plus son Archetype rim

http://hplusson.com/products/archetype

initially but then said they couldn't get it in 36 hole and changed it to Velocity Chucker rim

http://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=700

Its so ugly though and seems over the top that I declined so am now left to choose again.

I am wary of the Deep v cause my experince of deep rims is they are stiff yes but feel harsh and heavy - I like Open Pros cause it seems they used to be considered the best but now it seems there is doubt. I am also swaying to the Open Pros because both Harry Rowland and Paul Hewitt reccomended them. Harry did comment on deep rims but he said you get a much more evenly tensioned wheel with an Open Pro and he (and the guy at Paul Hewitt) said that that is the key to a strong lasting wheel

I live within an hour or so's drive of Spa so could go for one of these -

http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... b0s178p376

but all I know of Rigida Chrina rims is they are much much cheaper than either Open Pros or Deep vs and so I wonder if they are as good.

I tried wheelsmith but no answer so left a message so maybe they will suggest another option if the phone back.

Any advice greatfully recieved.

Garry H

Ugo just biolt me a pair of wheels on Ambrosio Excellight Rims (albeit on higher quality hubs) and I am very impressed with them so far.

wishitwasallflat

Garry H wrote:

Ugo just biolt me a pair of wheels on Ambrosio Excellight Rims (albeit on higher quality hubs) and I am very impressed with them so far.

Thanks - what do you weigh and would these be strong enough for me (just seen ugo post about a set of these rims on part but I think the Excellence is the rim reccomended for heavier riders
what that means though I don't know as sometimes it seems anyone over four stone is considered heavy in this road bike world ! he says slinking off for another Mars bar in depressed angst :oops:

Garry H

I weigh 67 kilos. Used 32 spokes front and rear on Hope Pro 3 Mono hubs. I believe the Excellights are very similar to Open Pros (more so than the Excellence anyway).

owenlars

Messrs Hewitt and Rowland have forgotten more about wheels than most people will ever know. If they have independently come up with the same answer to your wheel question (and at the same price) I would take their advice.

ugo.santalucia

Excellight and open pro are very similar... The reason I did not advise them earlier is because I could only get the 32. I just got hold of a set of 36 by mistake, so if you want them...

cycleclinic

Instead of using plain guage spokes I would build with with single butted spokes. Not much in the price but you get extra fatiugue resistance on the DS.

While the OP's would work I would have chosen something like the Velocity A23 or the Hplus sons Archetype or TB14 rims. The A23 are a favourite of mine. I would also suggest 2.0/1.8/2.0mm spokes front and NDS rear but with single butted spokes drive side. A 36F/36R with 105 hubs and A23 sims would come to £253. The A23 rim is superior to the
Mavic OP in terms of stiffness, braking surface thickness and spoke tension the rim can handle.
A has been mentioned even spoke tension is key to a long lasting wheel and every time I have built with a Open pro I have been dissapointed with the quality of the join and the with un evenness of the spoke tension achieved for the tollernaces I want for the wheel. I have to relax my standards when building with an Open pro to get even tesnion, this hurts.

With the Velocity rims I am impressed very even tensions easily acheived and I do not have to relax the tollerances for roundness and true that I build too.

ugo.santalucia

Instead of being confused, you should be relieved... basically everybody is saying the same thing... 36 spokes and hubs with angular contact bearings for heavy load.
Rim choice is down to availability of 36 holes and whether you can live with a set of wheels that weigh 2.5 Kg (Chukker) or you want something a bit lighter and livelier.
Open PRO have been the best selling rim for decades now and all the moaning and bad press is a bit unjustified given the numbers... the Archetype has been around for 6 months or so, how can we be so confident to say it is a much better rim? On paper yes, it makes more sense for a heavy rider, in practice nobody knows if after one year it develops horrible cracks... it is well built, is it better than an Open PRO? let's judge it in a few years time...

Ultimately it is down to where you place "performance" and where you place reliability... if you want the latter more than anything, then the wider and deeper the rim, the more chances it has to carry you around for many thousands of miles.
I also have the feeling that your reluctance towards deep V rims is due to a factory set, built with few thick bladed spokes in a radial pattern...

wishitwasallflat

Very astute ugo - RS 10s !

ugo.santalucia

wishitwasallflat wrote:

Very astute ugo - RS 10s !

They're not even deep... :?
What makes those wheels a bit harsh is the construction, plus you have to add your weight, which means you are bound to use very high tyre pressure... this all ends up in your back and shoulders...
You HAVE to use wider tyres... 25 minimum, if your frame allows go 28, there is no drawback in bigger tyres. A wider rim can also help a bit... a crossed construction with double butted spokes help...

djaeggi

I'm just an amateur with 12 wheel builds to my name, but this week saw me build wheels 10, 11, and 12, which were, respectively, 32h Open Pro front, 36h Open Pro rear, 24h HED Ardennes. I must say, the Open Pros were very uneven in tension, probably the trickiest wheels I've done and I had to make compromises in trueness to get the tensions close to acceptable. I'm a little surprised by the Hewitt/Rowland comments, because I find this hard to reconcile to my own (albeit limited!) experiences - there are far tougher rims out there, open pros may be relatively light but there are compromises and I'd be worried about the brake track thickness with a heavier rider too. The HED Ardennes, in contrast was a dream to build, a super nice rim (and the Archetype is a direct copy, from what I can see)!

Two further comments. My training wheels are 36h Chrinas (the first wheels I built and still going strong!) - these are excellent, tough & strong, with a thick brake track with a wear indicator, and have handled some touring as well (me 70kg + load 20-25kg) admirably. I think these would be fine for you but, that said, deep section rims might be the way to go, because of the massive structural advantage you get from the deep section (spoke bracing angle and rim bending stiffness combined). So (as ugo and thecycleclinic say), a deep-v, a23, archetype, or then again a cxp33 or possibly the most bombproof of rims, a dt rr1.2 might be suitable.

Good luck!

wishitwasallflat

Cheers djaeggi appreciate your perspective

cycleclinic

Never under estimate the Rigida Chrina. It is cheap and very tough and builds incredidably well. djaeggi it not your lack of experience that makes the OP difficult to build with, they are difficult to build with but they have there place in some circumstances, I do not feel however the open pro is the best choice for this application, there are application where the Open Pro is the better choice

A 36H Chrina build would take your load at 19st but the wheel set would be heavy. You will be limited to 26mm tyres max on the Chrina's though. the A23 which is 23mm wide and about 17mm wide internally can take 38mm tyres if you want them too.

My favourite rims in 36H drilling are the Rigida Chrina and the Velocity A23.

The DT Swiss RR1.2 is called the RR465 now and is only available in 32H drillings. Given it shallow profile and the 32H drilling I would not advise it use here as it will opperating at the limit of capabilities but will most likely be fine for while if trested carefully. The DT Swiss RR585 30mm deep V rim could be suitable drilling but is one of the stiffest rims out there but it is expensive.

ugo.santalucia

djaeggi wrote:

I'm just an amateur with 12 wheel builds to my name, but this week saw me build wheels 10, 11, and 12, which were, respectively, 32h Open Pro front, 36h Open Pro rear, 24h HED Ardennes. I must say, the Open Pros were very uneven in tension, probably the trickiest wheels I've done and I had to make compromises in trueness to get the tensions close to acceptable. I'm a little surprised by the Hewitt/Rowland comments, because I find this hard to reconcile to my own (albeit limited!) experiences - there are far tougher rims out there, open pros may be relatively light but there are compromises and I'd be worried about the brake track thickness with a heavier rider too. The HED Ardennes, in contrast was a dream to build, a super nice rim (and the Archetype is a direct copy, from what I can see)!

Two further comments. My training wheels are 36h Chrinas (the first wheels I built and still going strong!) - these are excellent, tough & strong, with a thick brake track with a wear indicator, and have handled some touring as well (me 70kg + load 20-25kg) admirably. I think these would be fine for you but, that said, deep section rims might be the way to go, because of the massive structural advantage you get from the deep section (spoke bracing angle and rim bending stiffness combined). So (as ugo and thecycleclinic say), a deep-v, a23, archetype, or then again a cxp33 or possibly the most bombproof of rims, a dt rr1.2 might be suitable.

Good luck!

That is a bit like saying that titanium frames are crap because it is so difficult to get the welds right. The fact that you find it difficult to even out the tensions has nothing to do with the end user experience. Clearly Harry Rowland can obtain satisfactory results with the Open PRO, otherwise it would not be still now the rim of choice after decades.
Let's not confuse inexperience with a crap product.

Rigida Chrina are solid rims and as such easier to build... they are the rim of choice among the CTC lot, essentially because you ca buy a pair for a bag of nuts. I find it difficult to relate to this people, often rather than replacing a rusty spoke, they would spend days trying to revive it with miracle product coming from under the kitchen sink... even when a spoke costs 30 pence

Horses for courses

drlodge

As others have said, the fact you've got 2 experienced wheel builders making the same recommendation means they're probably right. Harry will build you reliable wheels, and saving weight means a weaker wheel.

I have the Mavic Open Pro CDs, Dura Ace hubs and 32 spoke (Race/laser mix) on my 531 bike, and decided to go for the Excellights on my 953 Rourke, with 32H Record hubs and same spoke mix. I'm 77KG. Given your weight and the suggested components, I would go with that. I can recommend Harry, he knows his onions, here he is making my new wheels.

wishitwasallflat

owenlars wrote:

Messrs Hewitt and Rowland have forgotten more about wheels than most people will ever know. If they have independently come up with the same answer to your wheel question (and at the same price) I would take their advice.

drlodge wrote:

As others have said, the fact you've got 2 experienced wheel builders making the same recommendation means they're probably right.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Open PRO have been the best selling rim for decades now and all the moaning and bad press is a bit unjustified given the numbers...

Thanks to everyone for their input and advice - I find the suggestion that if two experienced and well rated wheel builder came up with exactly the same spec that's a pretty strong argument those wheels will be fine. As ugo says I wonder if its just that there are so many Open Pro's out there its no wonder there are tales of woe from some.

Anyway I am taking stock of things and thanks again to all for advice and suggestions - once finances are in order (I need to sell off a 105 Hub, Open Sport 32hole wheelset and also a rear Tiagra, Open Sport 32 hole rear wheel to finance this build!) I will take the plunge I think.

PS - If you're in the marcket for discounted Open Sport wheels like these (only done 380 or so miles) I will be posting in Road Parts as soon as I get time to clean them up and take photos. (Apols for the blatent pre-advertising of these! :oops: )

djaeggi

ugo.santalucia wrote:

That is a bit like saying that titanium frames are crap because it is so difficult to get the welds right. The fact that you find it difficult to even out the tensions has nothing to do with the end user experience. Clearly Harry Rowland can obtain satisfactory results with the Open PRO, otherwise it would not be still now the rim of choice after decades.
Let's not confuse inexperience with a crap product.

Gosh, that's not what I'm saying at all! You can't get more even than even, and more true than true - if a better wheelbuilder can build these better than I can (I'm sure they can!) then great! And who am I to cast aspersions on two of the better known UK wheelbuilders! However, I still remain surprised by the comment, "Harry did comment on deep rims but he said you get a much more evenly tensioned wheel with an Open Pro" because this basically implies that a hugely experienced wheelbuilder can make a pigs ear of a rim that a near-beginner finds easy to get near-perfect tension/trueness with (e.g. some of my previous wheels have been close to dead nuts, deep sections incidentally!). He may indeed be skilled at building the open pro, but that's not to say there aren't relatively better rims (i.e. that build more evenly). Which he says there aren't and that's not my experience, so I stand by my comments. Though, as above, if he can build an open pro even & true, it doesn't matter anyway! (Both my front and rear have a slight hop & wiggle around the weld, but they're relatively evenly tensioned).

Rigida Chrina are solid rims and as such easier to build... they are the rim of choice among the CTC lot, essentially because you ca buy a pair for a bag of nuts. I find it difficult to relate to this people, often rather than replacing a rusty spoke, they would spend days trying to revive it with miracle product coming from under the kitchen sink... even when a spoke costs 30 pence.

This is harsh. The Chrina is a tremendous rim that gives maximal bang for your buck, and not because it's cheap rather the quality is top-notch, and I'm definitely not a CTC-type!!! Value is the name of the game with cycling gear, because it's expensive enough as it is - save money on your training wheels, spend money on your race/best wheels :-). Same with tyres, Rubinos for training, Corsas for racing. Etc. When I (finally) wear mine my Chrinas out, I'll replace them in a flash.

ugo.santalucia

djaeggi wrote:

This is harsh. The Chrina is a tremendous rim that gives maximal bang for your buck, and not because it's cheap rather the quality is top-notch, and I'm definitely not a CTC-type!!! Value is the name of the game with cycling gear, because it's expensive enough as it is - save money on your training wheels, spend money on your race/best wheels :-). Same with tyres, Rubinos for training, Corsas for racing. Etc. When I (finally) wear mine my Chrinas out, I'll replace them in a flash.

I didn't say they are bad.... I said that's what "CTC people" use and want and generally only them. I don't use them because I find it difficult to talk to these people. They always come out with a set of period hubs from the shed and want to spend as little as possible and question everything. In their fantasy world labour is charged at 3 pounds an hour like in the 1970s and a spoke should cost no more than 5 pence, including the nipple. They expect to spend no more than 50 pounds to have their Perrin Maillard hubs built.

PS: my "CTC people" only refers to a few I had the pleasure to waste some time with