Hardtail or softtail for marthon racing?

bobgfish

Hi All

Trying to decide which will best suit my needs.

Background is that I am competing in a 11 day Marathon race this coming May. I did the event last on a 2004 Stumpjumper FSR (100mm) and was in the top 25%. It was the 2nd oldest bike and one of only two 26 inch bikes in the top 20. It's time for a new 29er.

The route consists of 20% Technical climbs and downhills, 20% tarmac roads, 50% rough fire trials and maybe 10% singletrack. Stages are up to 160Km long with up to 4000 meters of climbing each day.

The top guys all rode hardtails. I've never ridden one at all ever before and am concerned about comfort. I guess the bigger wheels will help with this but unsure of how much. I don't as yet race outside of this one event. I will be keeping my old bike for fun in the alps and local trials are probably very similar to the course mentioned above.

The hardtail of course will be a kilo or two lighter but I'm not sure that weight is as important as reliability. Of course I realise that comfort will be better with full suspension. And of the the Hardtail will be cheaper.

Which one to choose?
Thanks

allthegearnoidea

Cotic solaris?? steely hardtail goodness in 29er form!! bit of the best of both worlds there!!

bobgfish

Not really asking about which bike. More what to you think would suit best. A Hardtail vs Softtail. Never ridden a hardtail except around a carpark.

allthegearnoidea

From what you've said the majority were riding then I'd say hardtail! A Steel hardtail will give you a Springier feel and more supple ride, also a 'feel' of short travel rear end on the bigger bumps!!
See if you can borrow a HT for some miles to see if you get on with one!

njee20

You mean FS, as opposed to soft tail I assume, which are virtually non-existent these days.

What's the budget? If you're throwing enough at it you'll get a very light 29er FS.

Personally I'd be looking at a nice light carbon hardtail, dunno why you'd go steel when a steel hardtail will likely weigh more than even an alu FS, unless you're on a very tight budget.

bobgfish

I do mean FS...Budget well. Currently looking in the region of £5k. If I choose a hardtail it is approx 3.5k from the same manufacturer with the same gear on the bike. I'd rather spend less but the last bike was 11.7Kg and I need something lighter than this...Otherwise it's a downgrade...

bobgfish

Oh and nothing wrong with steal. The issue is the bike in this spec http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/mountain/product/review-cotic-solaris-12-46186 is at least 2 kgs to heavy. To trim all that gets harder and more expensive.

supersonic

If it fits, this is worth a look:

http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/products.p ... Suspension

cooldad

allthegearnoidea wrote:

From what you've said the majority were riding then I'd say hardtail! A Steel hardtail will give you a Springier feel and more supple ride, also a 'feel' of short travel rear end on the bigger bumps!!
See if you can borrow a HT for some miles to see if you get on with one!

The above is basically rubbish. Design counts for far more than material.

TimB34

From looking at race reports from things like the Crocodile trophy, Leadville and other one-day marathon races it looks like most people use 29er hardtails for two big reasons:

Light weight (with enough comfort from the bigger wheels rather than rear sus)
Two bottle cages

Something like this is marketed as a dedicated marathon race bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3023 - claimed weight of 9.5kg, under £3.5k

Incidentally, Canyon no longer sell their previous Lux MR (MR = Marathon Race), I guess as the carbon 29er hardtail does the same job better. If I was looking for a race bike, I'd go HT (as it is I'm not doing that kind of racing, so this is NOT the voice of experience!).

njee20

You're right, there's nothing wrong with steel, but with a £5k budget and lightweight in mind it's not the obvious choice, you're giving yourself a 2lb handicap.

Budget like that I'd be looking at a Trek Superfly SL/Cannondale Flash/Spesh S-Works etc, probably custom build. I'd go XX1, DT240/ZTR Race wheelset, SIDs, smattering of lightweight kit. 19lbs doable with careful choices I reckon.

bobgfish

Still undecided.

A lot of the endurance races are much shorter at 3-5 days rather than 9. The lightest affordable FS bike I've seen is a Cube at approx 10KG. Most of the big manufacturers seem to offer something close to 10kg but they are much more than my budget. To fit my budget I'm looking at close on 10.5ish KG for a FS. To fit the same budget the hardtail can be in the region of 9kg. So only a kg or so in it at the expense of comfort. Also I need to remember that weight is not as important as reliability. No outside support and if you fail to finish a stage you are out. The dual bottle cages does not bother me. You can't ride six hours on two bottles and a camelbak with 2-3 litres in it is a must....

If it fits, this is worth a look:
http://www.paulscycles.co.uk/products.p ... Suspension

Awesome price but too small...

Something like this is marketed as a dedicated marathon race bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes ... tml?b=3023 - claimed weight of 9.5kg, under £3.5k

Don't ship to Switzerland (marketing dispute) and rather ride it before I buy one.

Design counts for far more than material.

Yes !!! You can't start with a bike that weighs far to much and try and get it to be a lightweight race bike either.

Budget like that I'd be looking at a Trek Superfly SL/Cannondale Flash/Spesh S-Works etc

Yes but not the top of the range models. Need to step down a notch to 2nd bike in range. Weight then climbs quite quickly. Hard pressed to get below 9.5kg for hardtail or 11kg for my money.

I know what brand I will probably buy but need to make the choice between Hardtail and FS.
Thanks for input so far.

The Rookie

Trek superfly Elite carbon?

£4,000 very light for a production bike, quality lightweight frame (849g apparently), top end Shimano kit and treks famous frame warranty. http://www.trekbikes.com/uk/en/bikes/mo ... elite_sl/#

10.11Kg off the peg http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... e-11-42420 leaving you some money to optimise it for what you want.

njee20

Take ^^ that, replace wheels and finishing kit, sub 20lbs easily.

bobgfish

Trek superfly Elite carbon?

A few quotes for the review from bike radar

Ride quality leaves a bit to be desired, though, as while the Superfly is stiff everywhere it should be, it's stiffer than we'd like it to be elsewhere. Trek's frame designers have specified a skinny 27.2mm seatpost to help lend a bit of cushion to the rider's back end but that's only useful when seated and it's plainly evident that there isn't much movement inherent to the frame itself. This doesn't detract from the bike's thoroughbred capabilities but it does give us a bit of pause for multi-hour trail days and upcoming enduro events planned for later this season.

"Sharper and leaner than its predecessor but designed for race speed, not long-ride comfort"

The longest day last year was nearly 8 hours. The shortest 4 hours. Not sure that's the one...

bails87

You've ruled out the Canyon because they don't deliver to Switzerland. I assume this means you live in Switzerland?

How out of the question is a long weekend to Germany to go to Canyon and test/buy a bike? I'm sure I've read of other people doing that. Given the price of the bike, and the amount you're spending it would still work out as relatively 'good value' and getting a test ride would be sensible if you're wanting to spend so much money.

bobgfish

Not ruled them out. I've asked explicitly if you would choose a hard tail or FS bike for a race like mine. They only have at the moment a 29 hardtail and I'm not sure if thats what I want (I think they announced a 29er FS this year but not seen it on their web site yet). They only sell direct so getting to ride one is more difficult. It is 1100km round trip for me just to ride a bike. Once if decided on the hardtail or FS I can then choose which bike.

The Rookie

bobgfish wrote:

Trek superfly Elite carbon?

A few quotes for the review from bike radar

"Sharper and leaner than its predecessor but designed for race speed, not long-ride comfort"

The longest day last year was nearly 8 hours. The shortest 4 hours. Not sure that's the one...

I have been told that the production ones are changed slightly from the preproduction ones that wer given to the press, suggest you try one (Trek are pretty good with demo rides).

njee20

And that depends entirely on your yardstick. People do 24 solos on them. They're a race bike, designed to be light and fast. That doesn't mean that you entirely sacrifice comfort, but you're never going to get armchair like support from a bike of that ilk!

If I was buying a bike specifically for the events you say it'd be something like that. 29ers have a higher front end anyway, so you're gonna be more upright than an equivalent 26" bike straight off.

chez_m356

bobgfish wrote:

Something like this is marketed as a dedicated marathon race bike: http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes ... tml?b=3023 - claimed weight of 9.5kg, under £3.5k

Don't ship to Switzerland (marketing dispute) and rather ride it before I buy one.

yes they do

Legal guidelines for Swiss visitors:
Since 1 September 2010 we are not permitted to deliver bikes and accessories under the CANYON brand name to Switzerland due to trademark protection laws. Therefore we offer bikes and accessories exclusively for the Swiss market on our Swiss website http://www.purecycling.ch. These products are identical to those sold outside Switzerland by Canyon Bicycles GmbH under the CANYON brand name. If you have any further queries, please contact out Information and Order Hotline on the toll free number 0800-564731.

YeehaaMcgee

Personally, if I'd be racing for that long, I'd go for a full suss. I'm not in any danger of winning such an event, so I'd give away a little weight in order for some increased ride comfort for the last few days.

bobgfish

Choice made. Full suspension. Weighing a few more bikes around at the local bike shops and then penalty is only about a kilo for the same bike with the same kit on it. I think for the piece of mind it brings and the penalty it brings it will be worth it.

Thanks all.

ddraver

Agreed to be honest. If you re a pro that rides marathons all year then you may be able to handle a HT for thw whole race. If you re a normal human being then the extra comfort and skill flattering of a FS will be of more benefit than the lightweight of a HT IMO

I do a few 24hr races on my Ti Cotic Soul and come the last few laps i always wish I had a FS to cover up the mistakes I'm making cos I'm so knacked and give my sore poonum a rest! You may be much better than me though, It would nt be hard!

The Rookie

bobgfish wrote:

Choice made. Full suspension. Weighing a few more bikes around at the local bike shops and then penalty is only about a kilo for the same bike with the same kit on it. .

I would add though that while what you say is true, the FS frame costs more, so for a given budget you won't get the same kit, so the weight penalty is more likely to be 1.5Kg.

bobgfish

I would add though that while what you say is true, the FS frame costs more, so for a given budget you won't get the same kit, so the weight penalty is more likely to be 1.5Kg.

I would have said for the same money it's more like a 2 kilo penalty. I would have said you need to spend at least £1000 more to keep it at a kilo.

Agreed to be honest. If you re a pro that rides marathons all year then you may be able to handle a HT for thw whole race. If you re a normal human being then the extra comfort and skill flattering of a FS will be of more benefit than the lightweight of a HT IMO

Agreed.

yes they do

Legal guidelines for Swiss visitors:
Since 1 September 2010 we are not permitted to deliver bikes and accessories under the CANYON brand name to Switzerland due to trademark protection laws. Therefore we offer bikes and accessories exclusively for the Swiss market on our Swiss website http://www.purecycling.ch. These products are identical to those sold outside Switzerland by Canyon Bicycles GmbH under the CANYON brand name. If you have any further queries, please contact out Information and Order Hotline on the toll free number 0800-564731.

Used to display this on the front page. For whatever reason I don't see this anymore and forgot the web page. I assumed that it had escalated and they now were not able to sell whatsoever. I was wrong obviously. Thanks all for your help.

balmybaldwin

For thaty budget and use have a look at this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/categ ... 2-12-46465

Zero pivot carbon seat stays mean it is a soft tail - which will be a good compromise between FS/HT on the 29r.
Weight is about 25lb for the scalpel 2.

If you look at the 26rs then you would be looking at less than 21lb for the same money which is feather weight for dual suspension

bobgfish

For thaty budget and use have a look at this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/categ ... 2-12-46465

Amazing bike. Didn't know it was as light as this. I saw a Scalpel 29er Carbon Ultimate that was even more amazing but oh so far outside my budget. The Carbon one is just above as well...I'd discounted the Scalpel Carbon 2 because I thought it would be to heavy but this does seem a good spec for the money...

Can't do a 26er. Got one. Got left behind mainly on the technical climbs and hoping that the bigger wheels will be a help...

Northwind

If you're worried about comfort, the thing to do is ride your bike more, until all the nerves in your arris die.

bobgfish

If you're worried about comfort, the thing to do is ride your bike more, until all the nerves in your arris die.

15,000 km last year enough? My ar*e still hurts occasionally...

YeehaaMcgee

Northwind wrote:

If you're worried about comfort, the thing to do is ride your bike more, until all the nerves in your arris die.

Don't listen to him. I took his advice, it turns out all he wanted was to go in sans-lube.
I still walk funny.

bobgfish

For thaty budget and use have a look at this:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/categ ... 2-12-46465

By the way this bike is now £4500...That's inflation !!!