Love graphs? You'll love this analysis

frenchfighter
frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
edited October 2012 in Pro race
http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/sa ... a/AIC.html
Contador is the Greatest

Comments

  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Just finished reading it. Numbers can be misleading in some instances but here it is so clear who was doping.

    Eg/.

    This (fastest AND longest, LOL)
    TTTplotdist.jpg

    And this
    careerplotALLMEANS.jpg
    Contador is the Greatest
  • calvjones
    calvjones Posts: 3,850
    Quite stark when you put it like that isn't it?
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  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    Hmm, it would be better if they could update some of the graphs to include the-post armstrong era....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Lichtblick
    Lichtblick Posts: 1,434
    frenchfighter wrote:
    http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/savage/Cycling/LookingAtTheData/AIC.html


    Martin J. Savage does not have enough to do!

    :shock:
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    That was interesting, thanks for the link!
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    I'm disappointed that Discovery out-cheated Gewiss. Gewiss were my all time favourite -outrageous cheats. Armstrong just can't leave anything alone :roll:
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I'm disappointed that Discovery out-cheated Gewiss. Gewiss were my all time favourite -outrageous cheats. Armstrong just can't leave anything alone :roll:
    Love the fact you have a favourite cheating team :-) Don't worry they still did good!
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  • clanton
    clanton Posts: 1,289
    Couple of disappointing things here:

    "The last three challengers (Indurain, Rominger, and Boardman) averaged 446 W, a large increase in power compared with the previous record holders. During this period, the available bicycle aerodynamic improvements did not change as markedly"

    "When they won the TdF, both Evans and Wiggins were older and, on average, faster than Indurain in any of his 5 victories."

    Wiggo and Cuddles not clean? Nor Boardman it seems.
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    clanton wrote:
    Couple of disappointing things here:

    "The last three challengers (Indurain, Rominger, and Boardman) averaged 446 W, a large increase in power compared with the previous record holders. During this period, the available bicycle aerodynamic improvements did not change as markedly"

    "When they won the TdF, both Evans and Wiggins were older and, on average, faster than Indurain in any of his 5 victories."

    Wiggo and Cuddles not clean? Nor Boardman it seems.

    You can make stats say anything.. you're presented with a statement of fact and you can interpret that how you like..

    I'd look elsewhere for the answer -> eg. Wiggo's tour wasn't particularly mountainous? perhaps the standard of rider in the peloton has increased? Marginal gains over 15 years have got to be worth something? etc.
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    I seem to remember Wiggo's TTs as being extremely fast too, when compared with historical figures. Speed is a rather rough way of calculating things though. Ideally, if we wanted a really good gossip, we'd have blood profiles power and so on.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    So broadly speaking the cluster bottom left is where we see the limit of normal possibility, right?
    _
  • liquor box
    liquor box Posts: 184
    Jez mon wrote:
    I seem to remember Wiggo's TTs as being extremely fast too, when compared with historical figures. Speed is a rather rough way of calculating things though. Ideally, if we wanted a really good gossip, we'd have blood profiles power and so on.
    Would all TT's be as fast as possible? or would the previous stages or future stages make you slow down to either recover or save energy?
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    Just read Savage's conclusion. He says it was a mistake to strip Riis of his '96 title. I didn't know he had been stripped, or have I mis-read that?
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    Just read Savage's conclusion. He says it was a mistake to strip Riis of his '96 title. I didn't know he had been stripped, or have I mis-read that?


    No, he wasnt stripped - confessed after the SoL limit had passed. His name has an asterisk beside it, I think.
  • MrTapir
    MrTapir Posts: 1,206
    I find this bit quite amusing, in the conclusion: "Armstrong’s individual performances did not exceed those of the record-setting cyclists in the previous 9 years, such as Pantani, Riis, and Boardman."

    Good analysis that. INteresting to see Sastre climbed Alpe d'Huez faster than the magical 40 minute mark.
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    what is the fastest clean ascent of Alpe D Huez now? :) that chart would be good to see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Dave_1 wrote:
    what is the fastest clean ascent of Alpe D Huez now? :) that chart would be good to see


    I was going to say that we'll get a chance to see next year...but as they're going up twice, that's going to slow them down...
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    what is the fastest clean ascent of Alpe D Huez now? :) that chart would be good to see


    I was going to say that we'll get a chance to see next year...but as they're going up twice, that's going to slow them down...


    Yes, that could affect times....but Pantani seemed to climb it as fast after 120 miles as Lance did in a short TT up it so maybe not such a factor?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    what is the fastest clean ascent of Alpe D Huez now? :) that chart would be good to see


    I was going to say that we'll get a chance to see next year...but as they're going up twice, that's going to slow them down...

    Not really. It might be the Alpe twice, but they'd usually have at least one major climb in their legs before hitting the Alpe anyway.
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  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    what is the fastest clean ascent of Alpe D Huez now? :) that chart would be good to see


    I was going to say that we'll get a chance to see next year...but as they're going up twice, that's going to slow them down...

    Not really. It might be the Alpe twice, but they'd usually have at least one major climb in their legs before hitting the Alpe anyway.


    Fair point. But maybe the Alpe holds a little more 'fear' - the mystique etc - and riders may conserve a bit more than usual for the 2nd time? Dunno, just a thought.
  • inkyfingers
    inkyfingers Posts: 4,400
    Interesting stuff. Though I note you elected not to post this particular graph Frenchie...

    ClimbYearplotALL.jpg
    "I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    oooh...
  • inkyfingers
    inkyfingers Posts: 4,400
    I should add that I posted that more out of mischief that anything else.
    "I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    liquor box wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    I seem to remember Wiggo's TTs as being extremely fast too, when compared with historical figures. Speed is a rather rough way of calculating things though. Ideally, if we wanted a really good gossip, we'd have blood profiles power and so on.
    Would all TT's be as fast as possible? or would the previous stages or future stages make you slow down to either recover or save energy?

    As far as I know, a GC rider would generally ride a TT as hard as possible, within reason. If it's the penultimate day, they can afford to leave nothing in the tank though.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    inkyfingers wrote:
    I should add that I posted that more out of mischief that anything else.


    makes it even funnier :)
  • Squirrelpie
    Squirrelpie Posts: 78
    "The last three challengers (Indurain, Rominger, and Boardman) averaged 446 W, a large increase in power compared with the previous record holders. During this period, the available bicycle aerodynamic improvements did not change as markedly."
    This is referring to the period from 1994 to 1996. The bikes and rider positions were very different to each other. I doubt there to be anything suspicious about Boardman since he used the superman position and a very aerodynamic bike. He probably just averaged 400 watts again.
    Rominger on the other hand, had a much more traditional bike with tri bars.
  • deejay
    deejay Posts: 3,138
    Come come you bikies who are practical and ride the machines.
    Statistics are one thing but nothing on this thread has gone beyond theory and into the practical.

    None of those graphs indicate the "Gearing" used.
    I remember seeing 15/20 years ago the factual stats about the Hour record Fix wheel gearing used by Coppi through to Boardman.
    They got bigger and the bikes got lighter.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    inkyfingers wrote:
    Interesting stuff. Though I note you elected not to post this particular graph Frenchie...

    Anyone who has looked into this (and there is a huge and detailed article about just VAM and Contador and others on SportsScience) knows that a high score most ceratainly doesnt mean you doped. Read that article then come back to me if you have anything else to say.

    Also read the other graphs where Contador appears and compare that to the others on there.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Squirrelpie
    Squirrelpie Posts: 78
    edited October 2012
    Anyone who has looked into this (and there is a huge and detailed article about just VAM and Contador and others on SportsScience) knows that a high score most ceratainly doesnt mean you doped. Read that article then come back to me if you have anything else to say.

    Also read the other graphs where Contador appears and compare that to the others on there.

    Well he wasn't doping if he had a significant tailwind and a VO2 Max still in the 90s but he's never released his numbers so can't be defended on balance. Roll eyes.
    All we know is he cheated TDF 2010 and still celebrates 7 tours. He defends Armstrong and uses the same trainer. He is a witness in a high profile doping case in Spain and was on a team linked to another massive case in Italy.
    He made a massive recovery again after a rest day in the Vuelta 2012.

    Sorry but without his numbers its just looks like another case of win at all costs. :(
  • bipedal
    bipedal Posts: 466
    frenchfighter wrote:
    inkyfingers wrote:
    Interesting stuff. Though I note you elected not to post this particular graph Frenchie...

    Anyone who has looked into this (and there is a huge and detailed article about just VAM and Contador and others on SportsScience) knows that a high score most ceratainly doesnt mean you doped. Read that article then come back to me if you have anything else to say.

    Also read the other graphs where Contador appears and compare that to the others on there.

    But riding for the dirtiest DS in the biz and getting caught red-handed a year later doesn't engender confidence either, does it

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