Xmas Wheels for My Son - Carbon or Alu?

Phil33 · October 2012

I've promised my 11 year old crit-racing son new wheels to replace his ProLite Merano set (1670g). He wants the PlanetX 50mm carbon tubular jobbies (£400 and 1421g). I'd rather buy him some light alu or alu/carbon clinchers such as Shimano RS80. If I buy the carbon wheels I'll have to change brake blocks every time he races and I'm dubious about the longevity and aero benfits of the 50mm rim for the wee lad. Any thoughts? Are there any other seriously light alu wheels I should consider?

Phil

smidsy · October 2012

Cycling Plus Magazine reviewed such things in their August 12 edition (265).

American Classic 420 Aero 3 are worth a look.

Lightest Alu rim available (allegedly) and have 34.5mm rim depth.

Also have high/low flange rear hub to equate spoke tension, bladed spokes, cam operated pawls (so the engage together) and are really stiff.

Not cheap at RRP £599 though.

I have the previous (non 3) versions and rate them.

ugo.santalucia · October 2012

smidsy wrote:

Cycling Plus Magazine reviewed such things in their August 12 edition (265).

American Classic 420 Aero 3 are worth a look.

Lightest Alu rim available (allegedly) and have 34.5mm rim depth.

Also have high/low flange rear hub to equate spoke tension, bladed spokes, cam operated pawls (so the engage together) and are really stiff.

Not cheap at RRP £599 though.

I have the previous (non 3) versions and rate them.

I think they are extremely expensive for what they are... taiwanese hubs where you pay premium for ceramic bearings, which typically are worse than bog standard steel ones (not the good steel ones)...titanium skewers... fancy name but no upgrade there either, unless you are 10 grams as an upgrade worth paying for. Deep rims that weigh 420 grams can only be achieved by reducing the thickness of the braking track, hence they last less... unless you never brake, of course... aluminium nipples are of course waiting to give you troubles, as they seize in.
Not sure they are worth that much money, really. On paper they are not better than all those budget sets built on Kinlin rims, which cost less than half of that.

bmxboy10 · October 2012

with all due repect your son is 11. he wants the carbon wheels for one reason only and its not for the technical reasons. if i were 11 and wanted something specific for xmas and then my parents got me something else i would be gutted!

assuming you can afford the px wheels i think thats what i would get as its more important to keep him interested as opposed to being able to discuss the technical merits of alloy clinchers over christmas dinner.

DavidJB · October 2012

solboy10 wrote:

with all due repect your son is 11. he wants the carbon wheels for one reason only and its not for the technical reasons. if i were 11 and wanted something specific for xmas and then my parents got me something else i would be gutted!

assuming you can afford the px wheels i think thats what i would get as its more important to keep him interested as opposed to being able to discuss the technical merits of alloy clinchers over christmas dinner.

+1 classic Christmas mistake!

ugo.santalucia · October 2012

solboy10 wrote:

with all due repect your son is 11. he wants the carbon wheels for one reason only and its not for the technical reasons. if i were 11 and wanted something specific for xmas and then my parents got me something else i would be gutted!

assuming you can afford the px wheels i think thats what i would get as its more important to keep him interested as opposed to being able to discuss the technical merits of alloy clinchers over christmas dinner.

I fear this thread will move quickly from wheels to how to educate children...

kingrollo · October 2012

get the planet x carbon clincher - they list @ £499 - but have offers for £399 - you then don't need to change blocks etc.
They are nearly 1800kg though.

Tom Dean · October 2012

If you can afford £400 on a xmas gift, get him what he wants and let him change his own brake blocks.

matt_n-2 · October 2012

kingrollo wrote:

They are nearly 1800kg though.

That's a heavy pair of wheels

DavidJB · October 2012

Matt_N wrote:

kingrollo wrote:

They are nearly 1800kg though.

That's a heavy pair of wheels

Its fine...crits are mostly flat...and if he gets dropped he can wait for them to come around again and steam roller them :twisted:

Jim C · October 2012

Only dad can really answer the question

Some things to consider might be:
. Can he handle 50mm deep sections in a cross wind? Will the commissaire allow him to ride them if its windy?
. Can he ride then fast enough for the aero benefits to kick in?
. From experience young riders tend to ride from the car park, warm up and socialse with their carbon wheels in. The chance of damage or punctures is significant
. Punctures are costly and time consuming to fix. U wouldn't choose to race on a flat tub
. They do look bling

Over to dad

Bobbinogs · October 2012

Jim C wrote:

Only dad can really answer the question

Some things to consider might be:
. Can he handle 50mm deep sections in a cross wind? Will the commissaire allow him to ride them if its windy?
. Can he ride then fast enough for the aero benefits to kick in?
. From experience young riders tend to ride from the car park, warm up and socialse with their carbon wheels in. The chance of damage or punctures is significant
. Punctures are costly and time consuming to fix. U wouldn't choose to race on a flat tub
. They do look bling

How dare you bring common sense and logic into this thread, same goes to Ugo! This is all about giving an 11 year old the bling wheels he wants for Xmas, albeit after having a quick debate trying to justify it.

OP, just buy the wheels he wants, as per the above posts. I see the same kind of debate about laptops/ipads/dedicated gaming machines for 8 year olds; tech spec matching intended usage/justifiable expense just doesn't figure into a playground discussion on what you got for Xmas.

ugo.santalucia · October 2012

Jim C wrote:

. Punctures are costly and time consuming to fix.
Over to dad

Not costly, only time consuming.
You need thread, needle, some old tube, rubber glue and latex solution, something like Copydex... all very cheap. Time consuming, yes...

smidsy · October 2012

ugo.santalucia wrote:

smidsy wrote:

Cycling Plus Magazine reviewed such things in their August 12 edition (265).

American Classic 420 Aero 3 are worth a look.

Lightest Alu rim available (allegedly) and have 34.5mm rim depth.

Also have high/low flange rear hub to equate spoke tension, bladed spokes, cam operated pawls (so the engage together) and are really stiff.

Not cheap at RRP £599 though.

I have the previous (non 3) versions and rate them.

I think they are extremely expensive for what they are... taiwanese hubs where you pay premium for ceramic bearings, which typically are worse than bog standard steel ones (not the good steel ones)...titanium skewers... fancy name but no upgrade there either, unless you are 10 grams as an upgrade worth paying for. Deep rims that weigh 420 grams can only be achieved by reducing the thickness of the braking track, hence they last less... unless you never brake, of course... aluminium nipples are of course waiting to give you troubles, as they seize in.
Not sure they are worth that much money, really. On paper they are not better than all those budget sets built on Kinlin rims, which cost less than half of that.

Well as I only paid £200 for them I think they are excellent VFM

Phil33 · October 2012

Thanks for the all the posts and parenting advice

Maybe I seem hard hearted but I’m just being practical. The other kids in my son's class don’t know one round spokey thing from another, which means playground bragging rights don’t matter. He’s pretty level headed so if I explain that there are wheels better suited to his crit racing he’ll understand. He just wants to go faster!

He’s a second year ‘Youth C’ next season so the older lads he raced with this year will have moved to Youth B. When he was a 2nd Year D he came third in the NW champs and won other races so he is really keen to race next year. If any dads have kids who race they’ll know what I mean.

I'm still not sure what to buy though. I might try the handbuilt route as suggested.

Regards.

Phil

ugo.santalucia · October 2012

Pete Matthews is your local wheel building guru, I think... makes more sense to go local, if you have that opportunity

lotus49 · October 2012

This isn't about what is better but what he wants.

He can make his own choices and if they are bad ones, he will learn.

Make his Christmas and get him the wheels he wants not what you (or we) think is better.

Source: father of three children :-).

smidsy · October 2012

lotus49 wrote:

This isn't about what is better but what he wants.

He can make his own choices and if they are bad ones, he will learn.

Make his Christmas and get him the wheels he wants not what you (or we) think is better.

Source: father of three children :-).

He can do that when he uses his own money. Giving children everything they want does not make you a good parent - just a soft, kind one.

ugo.santalucia · October 2012

As a compromise, how about the Planet X 20 mm carbon tubulars? All the advantages of light carbon wheels, without the high profile.
But the biggest advantage in my view is in case a rim fails or they are not good for him because of the braking surface, the wheel can be easily rebuilt on an alloy rim with the same ERD, for instance Velocity A 23 or Velocity Aero Head, among others.
I have built a few of those planet X carbon rims for folks on this forum and so far the feedback is positive... they build ridiculously light at 1100 grams
Planet X sell both the rims and the built wheels... to have them built will end up costing pretty much the same, maybe a touch cheaper than the already built ones

This is a set I build earlier

napoleond · October 2012

jordan_217 · October 2012

ugo.santalucia wrote:

As a compromise, how about the Planet X 20 mm carbon tubulars? All the advantages of light carbon wheels, without the high profile.
But the biggest advantage in my view is in case a rim fails or they are not good for him because of the braking surface, the wheel can be easily rebuilt on an alloy rim with the same ERD, for instance Velocity A 23 or Velocity Aero Head, among others.
I have built a few of those planet X carbon rims for folks on this forum and so far the feedback is positive... they build ridiculously light at 1100 grams
Planet X sell both the rims and the built wheels... to have them built will end up costing pretty much the same, maybe a touch cheaper than the already built ones

This is a set I build earlier

Paulo, they seem very light! Would you like to stick your neck out and put a rider weight limit on them? e.g, would I be safe racing on them, weighing 78kg's?

ugo.santalucia · October 2012

jordan_217 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

As a compromise, how about the Planet X 20 mm carbon tubulars? All the advantages of light carbon wheels, without the high profile.
But the biggest advantage in my view is in case a rim fails or they are not good for him because of the braking surface, the wheel can be easily rebuilt on an alloy rim with the same ERD, for instance Velocity A 23 or Velocity Aero Head, among others.
I have built a few of those planet X carbon rims for folks on this forum and so far the feedback is positive... they build ridiculously light at 1100 grams
Planet X sell both the rims and the built wheels... to have them built will end up costing pretty much the same, maybe a touch cheaper than the already built ones

This is a set I build earlier

Paulo, they seem very light! Would you like to stick your neck out and put a rider weight limit on them? e.g, would I be safe racing on them, weighing 78kg's?

The structural limitation of the wheel is the rim, which Planet X recommends for up to 80Kg... it seems realistic to me... I have seen essentially the same product sold elsewhere with a weight limit of 90 Kg, so 80 Kg is on the conservative side, especially if combined with a 22-23 mm tub or bigger. If the rear is built with DT competition spokes (or Sapim race) it is stiff enough as well.

lotus49 · October 2012

smidsy wrote:

He can do that when he uses his own money. Giving children everything they want does not make you a good parent - just a soft, kind one.

I didn't suggest giving him everything he wanted, just one Christmas present.

If I bought my children everything they asked for I would be destitute, but I also know that giving them what you think they ought to have for Christmas as opposed to what they actually want is a recipe for a disappointing Christmas. It happened to me a couple of times, and despite the fact that I'm heading towards 50, I haven't forgotten.

Phil33 · October 2012

Thanks Ugo. Much appreciated. I'll take a look.

Regards.

Phil

Matt_as · October 2012

Having been a kid who raced crits myself (though in the days when even the Pros raced on handbuilt sprints) I wonder if these are going to be racing only wheels? Because tubs are a right pain in the arse to change and even carry as spares if training on the wheels. For a few reasons I wouldn't be sure about those wheels and would go for something that looks cool in alu clincher that is light, clinchers are just easier to deal with, if kids still race round parks etc like I used to, the surfaces can be crap and carbon rims might get trashed, plus there used to be a fair few crashes when I was a schoolie. The main thing I would worry about is the wheel weight, this is important in crits as the racing can be stop-start so you need something that accelerates easily and also I am guessing your son may not be that big and strong yet so he wont want tank wheels.

Having said all that your son will want his bike to look cool like a pros bike so he will want the planet-x wheels and if they are for racing only then maybe they will be fine. I would be wary of getting any cheap clincher carbons though because most of them way a ton and will feel toss to ride. I ahd the original planet-x 50s about 7 years ago and they were good wheels and rode really nicely if that helps.

Phil33 · October 2012

Matt_as wrote:

Having been a kid who raced crits myself (though in the days when even the Pros raced on handbuilt sprints) I wonder if these are going to be racing only wheels? Because tubs are a right pain in the ars* to change and even carry as spares if training on the wheels. For a few reasons I wouldn't be sure about those wheels and would go for something that looks cool in alu clincher that is light, clinchers are just easier to deal with, if kids still race round parks etc like I used to, the surfaces can be crap and carbon rims might get trashed, plus there used to be a fair few crashes when I was a schoolie. The main thing I would worry about is the wheel weight, this is important in crits as the racing can be stop-start so you need something that accelerates easily and also I am guessing your son may not be that big and strong yet so he wont want tank wheels.

Having said all that your son will want his bike to look cool like a pros bike so he will want the planet-x wheels and if they are for racing only then maybe they will be fine. I would be wary of getting any cheap clincher carbons though because most of them way a ton and will feel toss to ride. I ahd the original planet-x 50s about 7 years ago and they were good wheels and rode really nicely if that helps.

Thanks Matt for the considered reply. I was leaning towards the 20 carbon PX wheels but at the same time I'm still wary about tubs and carbon rims. I think I may speak to Pete Matthews. He helps out at our local youth winter training sessions and seems like a nice guy.

Xmas Wheels for My Son - Carbon or Alu?

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