Miguel Indurain.

LiamW
LiamW Posts: 358
edited October 2012 in Road general
Was he taking drugs while he was winning his 5 TDF's?
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Comments

  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    99% certainly - there was a noticeable increase in TdF average speeds which co-incides with indurain's winning streak as well as the influence of doctors like Cecchini, Conconi, Ferrari et al - or put it this way, Tony Rominger who was working with Ferrari couldn't beat him. Likewise, if you read into Greg Lemond's account of his retirement and observations from the likes of Laurent Fignon who felt he needed drugs to just keep up. You also has donkeys like Rijs and Chiapucci who suddenly went from lowly domestiques to GT contendors in a few years - a feat only achieved by miracle boy Armstrong and unprecedented in the history of the sport. Previous GT winners had demonstrated prodigous talent in from an early age, not mid-career.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • meesterbond
    meesterbond Posts: 1,240
    But he never tested positive.... :wink:
  • t5nel
    t5nel Posts: 365
    It's all rather sad really - bit of a hero for me when I was growing up.

    I wonder if/when people will have enough of dragging skeletons out of the cupboard.

    Not sure if it better to just draw a line under it and assume murky stuff went on in the past or (as in the case of Armstrong) try and relentlessly pursue individuals by name.

    Tim
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  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    t5nel wrote:
    It's all rather sad really - bit of a hero for me when I was growing up.

    I wonder if/when people will have enough of dragging skeletons out of the cupboard.

    Not sure if it better to just draw a line under it and assume murky stuff went on in the past or (as in the case of Armstrong) try and relentlessly pursue individuals by name.

    Tim

    That
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  • Calpol
    Calpol Posts: 1,039
    I too was wondering about this. Not sure i would put it at 99% more like 100%!! Although he was a bit like Wiggo in the respect that he was a TT expert and tended to build his advantage in those stages, at least in the first few Tour wins. I believe he is Wiggins hero and inspiration so I bet Brad is praying nobody rats on Big Mig. Maybe interactive TV will bring live Powermeter data to our screens then we will be able to tell when someone is dosed up!
  • meesterbond
    meesterbond Posts: 1,240
    You'll never stop speculation or here say, but I doubt there will be any lawsuits for riders prior to Armstrong as they'd be well outside the various statues of limitation (although I'm making a broad assumption that most doping agencies have similar limits to USADA).
    The only reason Armstrong's case went as far as it could do was because they were charging him with conspiracy etc and not just single instances of doping.
  • The difference, in my view, is that when he 'climbed off' he did just that! Walked away from the professional side and restricted himself to local matters. I have a total and unconditional admiration for the man and the cyclist.


    Yes, I know.
    'fool'
  • flem51
    flem51 Posts: 18
    I Heard he said he thought Armstrong is innocent today....

    www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20048066
    1 hour ago – Five-time Tour de France winner Miguel Indurain says he believes Lance Armstrong is not guilty of doping.
  • Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
    It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life
    left the forum March 2023
  • t5nel
    t5nel Posts: 365
    Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
    It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life

    There is *some* truth in this and obviously where people push things to the absolute limits of what they can get away with in a competitive moment it does all add spice and controversy. As an english man who can remember crying during the famous 'hand of god' incident (I was only 10!) I can understand why maradona did it in the heat of the moment. I also remember the Post Senna battles too.

    Where I think long term doping is different is in the premeditation. I do not believe that Senna or Maradona went into competition that day with a specific plan to cheat - on the spur of the moment they took a chance, pushed the rules (to breaking point) and on that occasion got away with it. EVERY single day Armstrong and other dopers competed they were doing it fully in the knowledge that part of their long term scheme to be successful including planned regular cheating and evasion...
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  • crispybug2
    crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    edited October 2012
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuQ_58zcyfs


    Greg Lemond calls it @ 5.11
  • de_sisti
    de_sisti Posts: 1,283
    crispybug2 wrote:
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kuQ_58zcyfs&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    Greg Lemond calls it @ 5.11

    link not working.
  • de_sisti
    de_sisti Posts: 1,283
    edited October 2012
    What was Indurain's tour record, year by year?
    [edit];
    Tour de France
    1984: Withdrew
    1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
    1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
    1987: 97th
    1988: 47th
    1989: 17th
    1990: 10th
    1991: 1st
    1992: 1st
    1993: 1st
    1994: 1st
    1995: 1st
    1996: 11th

    Vuelta a España
    1984: Withdrew
    1985: 84th
    1986: 92nd
    1987: Withdrew
    1988: Withdrew
    1989: Withdrew
    1990: 7th
    1991: 2nd
    1996: Withdrew, 12th stage
  • crispybug2
    crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    De Sisti wrote:
    crispybug2 wrote:
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kuQ_58zcyfs&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    Greg Lemond calls it @ 5.11

    link not working.


    Fixed it!
  • crispybug2
    crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    De Sisti wrote:
    crispybug2 wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuQ_58zcyfs


    Greg Lemond calls it @ 5.11

    link not working.
  • t5nel wrote:
    Not sure if it better to just draw a line under it and assume murky stuff went on in the past or (as in the case of Armstrong) try and relentlessly pursue individuals by name.

    Tim

    I somewhat agree with this. 'Back in the day' it appears that they were all using amphetamines and drinking (etc). If all of the Tour winners that took drugs were erased, I have to wonder how many would remain...

    But then again, the sport has changed in many other ways, so why not that? I'm waiting for them to dig out the samples for Merckx, Anquetil et al, though. :lol:
  • Nik Cube
    Nik Cube Posts: 311
    Merckx tested positive more than once !

    Jacque admitted dopping

    The fact is they are all at it and always have been
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  • kleinstroker
    kleinstroker Posts: 2,133
    damn you... I always thought Miguel was the real deal! Does this mean I have to take this down from my hallway.. gutted!!

    miguelon.jpeg
  • Nik Cube wrote:
    Merckx tested positive more than once !

    Jacque admitted dopping

    The fact is they are all at it and always have been

    I knew that Anquetil admitted to it; wasn't sure about Eddy. But sad to say, I basically agree...
  • mikeyj28
    mikeyj28 Posts: 754
    Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
    It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life


    You can't compare Senna and Maradona with what Armstrong has done.
    Senna was very open about taking Prost out at the first corner. If Gary Lineker had handled in the cross in the same game to make it 2-2 i can guarantee that no Englishman would suggest he was a cheat/scum etc. MAradona handled it and got away with it.people should be ashamed at Shilton for not punching the ball away and cleaning Maradona out at the same time. Credit to MAradona in my eyes.

    Now Armstrong (and many others)...where to begin!
    Constantly trying to upgrade my parts.It is a long road ahead as things are so expensive for little gain. n+1 is always the principle in my mind.
  • mikeyj28
    mikeyj28 Posts: 754
    Nik Cube wrote:
    Merckx tested positive more than once !

    Jacque admitted dopping

    The fact is they are all at it and always have been

    I knew that Anquetil admitted to it; wasn't sure about Eddy. But sad to say, I basically agree...

    Mercx was at least caught 3 times positive.

    Now what about Roche??? a good winner or a tainted one?
    Constantly trying to upgrade my parts.It is a long road ahead as things are so expensive for little gain. n+1 is always the principle in my mind.
  • LiamW
    LiamW Posts: 358
    My own personal opinion is that he took drugs, but so what. I didn't race and lose against him so my opinion doesn't matter.
  • siamon
    siamon Posts: 274
    There was a TV program on new testing procedures for the London Olympics. The chap who designed the tests for London, said that he decided to test the previous Beijing Olympic's medal winners samples to "test his tests".

    He was almost certain that the samples would all pass considering they would have degraded in the four years since Beijing, meaning the test may be worthless, but he decided to give it a go. He started to test a "few" samples. Every single one was positive. In a big way. Every single one would have resulted in a failed test to the London procedures.

    This put him in a moral quandary. Should he test all samples and release the data to the public or stop testing and release it or just keep stum? He concluded that he would not promote his discovery, but that if he was asked a direct question then he would answer honestly. In his view, the medal winners had won their races then passed their tests, so they were entitled to the medals because they were within the rules "at that time"

    The implication was clear that top sportsmen are always one step ahead of the testers.

    Merckx admitted one count but still claims that the other two failed tests were plants by other teams or bribed officials.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    Interesting... Link to that?
  • To my very limited knowledge (and correct me if im wrong) there wasnt a test for EPO as such, more of a guidline level set by UCI at which point it would indicate the possibility of EPO use. i think it has been mentioned in an earlier post but if a rider had a haematocrit reading of above 50 it would be indicative of EPO use. This means a rider could have a natural level of 40 and use EPO to get their level to 49 and still be within the guideline, but overall thats a 20% increase. So while some people might say that a particular rider never tested positive there has always been room for manipulation.
  • mikeyj28 wrote:
    Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
    It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life


    You can't compare Senna and Maradona with what Armstrong has done.
    Senna was very open about taking Prost out at the first corner. If Gary Lineker had handled in the cross in the same game to make it 2-2 i can guarantee that no Englishman would suggest he was a cheat/scum etc. MAradona handled it and got away with it.people should be ashamed at Shilton for not punching the ball away and cleaning Maradona out at the same time. Credit to MAradona in my eyes.

    Now Armstrong (and many others)...where to begin!

    My point is that we sem to take sport far too seriously... maybe because it's big business, maybe because we are biased to support some individuals and make them into our heroes... I have now reached a point when I don't particularly care for any individual or team, I watch sport as a form of entertainment, without asking myself too many questions, as I don't necessarily want to know the answers.
    Back in the days I did study medicinal chemistry and I think I have a fairly deep knowledge of drugs in sport, but simply I am not interested in the clean/guilty debate... in fact, I don't know why I am taking part in this... ah yes, Indurain... he was dirty, he had over 7 Watts/ Kg power output, which is impossible to achieve without performance enhancing drugs... as they say... period.
    left the forum March 2023
  • markos1963
    markos1963 Posts: 3,724
    I think it almost goes without question that he doped, given the culture and the country he came from I would almost be more suprised if he hadn't.
    The sad thing is that Big Mig was a freak of nature anyway, with a misshapen chest that allowed a massive VO2max figure that could only be achieved by genetics he would have been a winner anyway. Apparently his power figures even now would still allow him to race at a national level.
  • Tragically Big Mig's recent comments have revealed him to possess the intellect of a dilapidated anus.
  • Tragically Big Mig's recent comments have revealed him to possess the intellect of a dilapidated anus.


    He is a simple man, coming from a farming background... you can't expect him to take part in the politics of sport... when he quit, he quit... occasionally they ask him to attend some events and say things, but the impression is that he does it upon insistance and really, he can't be bothered.
    Others always seem to have something to say...
    left the forum March 2023
  • lotus49
    lotus49 Posts: 763
    I have to say that I'm sick of hearing about drugs in cycling. I should point out that I'm not criticising your post, I am talking about the mainstream media written by people who understand little and care less.

    I am not trying to defend what happened and I really hope we are past that era but it happened and you cannot change the past. LA may be a dick but he was a great cyclist. So was Eddy Merckx, Miguel Indurain and a host of others who definitely or almost certainly doped. That's the way it was and there is no point raking over the coals and trying to airbrush people out of history. Now that LA's TdF wins have been 'erased' will everyone else pop up one position? Will we have new allegations against all the new 'winners'? I sincerely hope the whole thing will just quietly be dropped and the sport can move on.

    Enough's enough.