Miguel Indurain.
LiamW
Posts: 358
Was he taking drugs while he was winning his 5 TDF's?
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99% certainly - there was a noticeable increase in TdF average speeds which co-incides with indurain's winning streak as well as the influence of doctors like Cecchini, Conconi, Ferrari et al - or put it this way, Tony Rominger who was working with Ferrari couldn't beat him. Likewise, if you read into Greg Lemond's account of his retirement and observations from the likes of Laurent Fignon who felt he needed drugs to just keep up. You also has donkeys like Rijs and Chiapucci who suddenly went from lowly domestiques to GT contendors in a few years - a feat only achieved by miracle boy Armstrong and unprecedented in the history of the sport. Previous GT winners had demonstrated prodigous talent in from an early age, not mid-career.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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But he never tested positive....0
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It's all rather sad really - bit of a hero for me when I was growing up.
I wonder if/when people will have enough of dragging skeletons out of the cupboard.
Not sure if it better to just draw a line under it and assume murky stuff went on in the past or (as in the case of Armstrong) try and relentlessly pursue individuals by name.
TimMy bikes
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t5nel wrote:It's all rather sad really - bit of a hero for me when I was growing up.
I wonder if/when people will have enough of dragging skeletons out of the cupboard.
Not sure if it better to just draw a line under it and assume murky stuff went on in the past or (as in the case of Armstrong) try and relentlessly pursue individuals by name.
Tim
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Allround - Cotic Solaris0 -
I too was wondering about this. Not sure i would put it at 99% more like 100%!! Although he was a bit like Wiggo in the respect that he was a TT expert and tended to build his advantage in those stages, at least in the first few Tour wins. I believe he is Wiggins hero and inspiration so I bet Brad is praying nobody rats on Big Mig. Maybe interactive TV will bring live Powermeter data to our screens then we will be able to tell when someone is dosed up!0
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You'll never stop speculation or here say, but I doubt there will be any lawsuits for riders prior to Armstrong as they'd be well outside the various statues of limitation (although I'm making a broad assumption that most doping agencies have similar limits to USADA).
The only reason Armstrong's case went as far as it could do was because they were charging him with conspiracy etc and not just single instances of doping.0 -
The difference, in my view, is that when he 'climbed off' he did just that! Walked away from the professional side and restricted himself to local matters. I have a total and unconditional admiration for the man and the cyclist.
Yes, I know.'fool'0 -
I Heard he said he thought Armstrong is innocent today....
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20048066
1 hour ago – Five-time Tour de France winner Miguel Indurain says he believes Lance Armstrong is not guilty of doping.0 -
Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's lifeleft the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life
There is *some* truth in this and obviously where people push things to the absolute limits of what they can get away with in a competitive moment it does all add spice and controversy. As an english man who can remember crying during the famous 'hand of god' incident (I was only 10!) I can understand why maradona did it in the heat of the moment. I also remember the Post Senna battles too.
Where I think long term doping is different is in the premeditation. I do not believe that Senna or Maradona went into competition that day with a specific plan to cheat - on the spur of the moment they took a chance, pushed the rules (to breaking point) and on that occasion got away with it. EVERY single day Armstrong and other dopers competed they were doing it fully in the knowledge that part of their long term scheme to be successful including planned regular cheating and evasion...My bikes
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crispybug2 wrote:<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kuQ_58zcyfs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Greg Lemond calls it @ 5.11
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What was Indurain's tour record, year by year?
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Tour de France
1984: Withdrew
1985: Withdrew, 4th stage
1986: Withdrew, 8th stage
1987: 97th
1988: 47th
1989: 17th
1990: 10th
1991: 1st
1992: 1st
1993: 1st
1994: 1st
1995: 1st
1996: 11th
Vuelta a España
1984: Withdrew
1985: 84th
1986: 92nd
1987: Withdrew
1988: Withdrew
1989: Withdrew
1990: 7th
1991: 2nd
1996: Withdrew, 12th stage0 -
De Sisti wrote:crispybug2 wrote:<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kuQ_58zcyfs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Greg Lemond calls it @ 5.11
link not working.
Fixed it!0 -
De Sisti wrote:crispybug2 wrote:
link not working.0 -
t5nel wrote:Not sure if it better to just draw a line under it and assume murky stuff went on in the past or (as in the case of Armstrong) try and relentlessly pursue individuals by name.
Tim
I somewhat agree with this. 'Back in the day' it appears that they were all using amphetamines and drinking (etc). If all of the Tour winners that took drugs were erased, I have to wonder how many would remain...
But then again, the sport has changed in many other ways, so why not that? I'm waiting for them to dig out the samples for Merckx, Anquetil et al, though.0 -
Merckx tested positive more than once !
Jacque admitted dopping
The fact is they are all at it and always have beenFcn 5
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damn you... I always thought Miguel was the real deal! Does this mean I have to take this down from my hallway.. gutted!!
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Nik Cube wrote:Merckx tested positive more than once !
Jacque admitted dopping
The fact is they are all at it and always have been
I knew that Anquetil admitted to it; wasn't sure about Eddy. But sad to say, I basically agree...0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life
You can't compare Senna and Maradona with what Armstrong has done.
Senna was very open about taking Prost out at the first corner. If Gary Lineker had handled in the cross in the same game to make it 2-2 i can guarantee that no Englishman would suggest he was a cheat/scum etc. MAradona handled it and got away with it.people should be ashamed at Shilton for not punching the ball away and cleaning Maradona out at the same time. Credit to MAradona in my eyes.
Now Armstrong (and many others)...where to begin!Constantly trying to upgrade my parts.It is a long road ahead as things are so expensive for little gain. n+1 is always the principle in my mind.0 -
Simon Masterson wrote:Nik Cube wrote:Merckx tested positive more than once !
Jacque admitted dopping
The fact is they are all at it and always have been
I knew that Anquetil admitted to it; wasn't sure about Eddy. But sad to say, I basically agree...
Mercx was at least caught 3 times positive.
Now what about Roche??? a good winner or a tainted one?Constantly trying to upgrade my parts.It is a long road ahead as things are so expensive for little gain. n+1 is always the principle in my mind.0 -
My own personal opinion is that he took drugs, but so what. I didn't race and lose against him so my opinion doesn't matter.0
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There was a TV program on new testing procedures for the London Olympics. The chap who designed the tests for London, said that he decided to test the previous Beijing Olympic's medal winners samples to "test his tests".
He was almost certain that the samples would all pass considering they would have degraded in the four years since Beijing, meaning the test may be worthless, but he decided to give it a go. He started to test a "few" samples. Every single one was positive. In a big way. Every single one would have resulted in a failed test to the London procedures.
This put him in a moral quandary. Should he test all samples and release the data to the public or stop testing and release it or just keep stum? He concluded that he would not promote his discovery, but that if he was asked a direct question then he would answer honestly. In his view, the medal winners had won their races then passed their tests, so they were entitled to the medals because they were within the rules "at that time"
The implication was clear that top sportsmen are always one step ahead of the testers.
Merckx admitted one count but still claims that the other two failed tests were plants by other teams or bribed officials.0 -
Interesting... Link to that?0
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To my very limited knowledge (and correct me if im wrong) there wasnt a test for EPO as such, more of a guidline level set by UCI at which point it would indicate the possibility of EPO use. i think it has been mentioned in an earlier post but if a rider had a haematocrit reading of above 50 it would be indicative of EPO use. This means a rider could have a natural level of 40 and use EPO to get their level to 49 and still be within the guideline, but overall thats a 20% increase. So while some people might say that a particular rider never tested positive there has always been room for manipulation.0
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mikeyj28 wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Sport and cheating have always gone hand in hand... I think it's part of the allure... the idealism of a clean sport, where everyone follows the rules and competes au pair is a bit boring, frankly... many entertaining moments in sports were out of the rules... Maradona's hand of God... Senna's crash into Prost to claim the F1 title and Pantani's attack in the Galibier's storm, fuelled by EPO and god knows what... I enjoy a bit of cheating, but then again, I hardly take sport seriously and don't bet money into it
It's a bit sad when they die because of drugs... but again, people die for less glamorous jobs and far less money... it's life
You can't compare Senna and Maradona with what Armstrong has done.
Senna was very open about taking Prost out at the first corner. If Gary Lineker had handled in the cross in the same game to make it 2-2 i can guarantee that no Englishman would suggest he was a cheat/scum etc. MAradona handled it and got away with it.people should be ashamed at Shilton for not punching the ball away and cleaning Maradona out at the same time. Credit to MAradona in my eyes.
Now Armstrong (and many others)...where to begin!
My point is that we sem to take sport far too seriously... maybe because it's big business, maybe because we are biased to support some individuals and make them into our heroes... I have now reached a point when I don't particularly care for any individual or team, I watch sport as a form of entertainment, without asking myself too many questions, as I don't necessarily want to know the answers.
Back in the days I did study medicinal chemistry and I think I have a fairly deep knowledge of drugs in sport, but simply I am not interested in the clean/guilty debate... in fact, I don't know why I am taking part in this... ah yes, Indurain... he was dirty, he had over 7 Watts/ Kg power output, which is impossible to achieve without performance enhancing drugs... as they say... period.left the forum March 20230 -
I think it almost goes without question that he doped, given the culture and the country he came from I would almost be more suprised if he hadn't.
The sad thing is that Big Mig was a freak of nature anyway, with a misshapen chest that allowed a massive VO2max figure that could only be achieved by genetics he would have been a winner anyway. Apparently his power figures even now would still allow him to race at a national level.Norfolk, who nicked all the hills?
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Tragically Big Mig's recent comments have revealed him to possess the intellect of a dilapidated anus.0
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EdgarAllenPoe wrote:Tragically Big Mig's recent comments have revealed him to possess the intellect of a dilapidated anus.
He is a simple man, coming from a farming background... you can't expect him to take part in the politics of sport... when he quit, he quit... occasionally they ask him to attend some events and say things, but the impression is that he does it upon insistance and really, he can't be bothered.
Others always seem to have something to say...left the forum March 20230 -
I have to say that I'm sick of hearing about drugs in cycling. I should point out that I'm not criticising your post, I am talking about the mainstream media written by people who understand little and care less.
I am not trying to defend what happened and I really hope we are past that era but it happened and you cannot change the past. LA may be a dick but he was a great cyclist. So was Eddy Merckx, Miguel Indurain and a host of others who definitely or almost certainly doped. That's the way it was and there is no point raking over the coals and trying to airbrush people out of history. Now that LA's TdF wins have been 'erased' will everyone else pop up one position? Will we have new allegations against all the new 'winners'? I sincerely hope the whole thing will just quietly be dropped and the sport can move on.
Enough's enough.0