Are England's black football players actually mixed race?

notsoblue

rjsterry wrote:

Did a bit of googling around the subject last night and there's a fair bit of fairly nasty stuff about black celebrities who aren't "100% black" - i.e. have some white ancestry - pretty depressing, but not all that surprising.

It goes both ways. Mixed celebrities that have even a small amount of black ancestry are considered to be black or african american by those groups of people even if they don't identify as such.

BigJimmyB

Phil Lynnott shuldn't be on that site. He was Irish, not a Briton

Another side note. Rio is apparently looking to start a Black Footballers association or something of a similar name.

So in repsonse to what he sees as a lack of action against racism, he's going to champion a group specifically for black players (whether this actually means 'non-white' and could include mixed race/asian players etc I don't know).

I think this is divisive (creates a distinction between people's colour) and perhaps racist. On the flip side, what if John Terry started the White Footballers Association? He'd be lynched.

Looking at this and my earlier post about the choc ice tweet, I think Rio is a hypocrite.

Why can't he stop all this nonsense and agree to work harder to support the kick it out campaign and be a role model for tolerance and racial harmony?

DonDaddyD

BigJimmyB wrote:

Another side note. Rio is apparently looking to start a Black Footballers association or something of a similar name.

So in repsonse to what he sees as a lack of action against racism, he's going to champion a group specifically for black players (whether this actually means 'non-white' and could include mixed race/asian players etc I don't know).

The Daily Mail article doesn't have a single quote from Rio Ferdinand. He has since disputed the claim.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... yers-union

BigJimmyB

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20048531

"At the moment we cannot say names but I think you will be well aware that [Ferdinand] is a person [who] has taken a stance."

Perhaps it is all hearsay, but regardless of the instigator, I find the proposition distasteful

EKE_38BPM

BigJimmyB wrote:

Phil Lynnott shuldn't be on that site. He was Irish, not a Briton

Like I said, can of worms.

BigJimmyB wrote:

Another side note. Rio is apparently looking to start a Black Footballers association or something of a similar name.

The Guardian wrote:

Rio Ferdinand has quickly moved to downplay reports that he is working on the formation of a new footballers' union – specifically, but not uniquely for black players. "Don't believe all u read"

BigJimmyB wrote:

So in repsonse to what he sees as a lack of action against racism, he's going to champion a group specifically for black players (whether this actually means 'non-white' and could include mixed race/asian players etc I don't know).

I believe Rio believes that the Kick It Out campaign is toothless and little is being done to support players on the receiving end of racial abuse. If he is planning on starting an alternative player's union, I would guess it would be to highlight the lack of support and the pitiful fines that players and clubs receive for racial abuse.

BigJimmyB wrote:

I think this is divisive (creates a distinction between people's colour) and perhaps racist.

Divisive, yes. In his mind (if he is starting this alternative union), then he obviously thinks it is necessary, but he hasn't said he is and he definitely hasn't said what the entrance criteria would be.

BigJimmyB wrote:

On the flip side, what if John Terry started the White Footballers Association? He'd be lynched.

I don't think lynching John Terry would be a bad thing and I'm not alone.

BigJimmyB wrote:

Looking at this and my earlier post about the choc ice tweet, I think Rio is a hypocrite.

Your opinion, just like mine and lynching John Terry.

BigJimmyB wrote:

Why can't he stop all this nonsense and agree to work harder to support the kick it out campaign and be a role model for tolerance and racial harmony?

Because he doesn't think it has any teeth and that it doesn't work. I think that on this matter, he is being a role model for player's on the receiving end of racial abuse to stand up for themselves. T-shirts and badges are all well and good, but when actual abuse is happening/has happened, the campaign needs the teeth to actually do something to end the racial abuse.

EKE_38BPM

BigJimmyB wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20048531

"At the moment we cannot say names but I think you will be well aware that [Ferdinand] is a person [who] has taken a stance."

Perhaps it is all hearsay, but regardless of the instigator, I find the proposition distasteful

Are the Society of Black Lawyers or the Black Police Association also distasteful? I would imagine that the Society of Black Lawyers will have a firm legal footing to avoid accusations of discrimination being levelled against them, so the same footing will probably count for this hypothetical/prospective alternative footballer's union.

Greg T

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Are the Society of Black Lawyers or the Black Police Association also distasteful? . . . .

so the same footing will probably count for this hypothetical/prospective alternative footballer's union.

Hmmm - well that certainly is a quandary . . . .

I'd rank them

Footballers
Lawyers
Policemen

Most distasteful at the top (by some margin), should I read the rest of the thread, no probably not..

Where would you put traffic wardens on the list - now that's a challenge . . . .

Ginjafro

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ginjafro wrote:

I never said it was a huge problem. It is something I have pondered for a while, yes. My life will go on however, even if this issue isn't resolved in the course of this conversation.

And "pondering" is what you tend to do, for what purpose I am not sure but I have considered you are quite possibly a closet troll either in denial or trying to find a way to "come out" without being noticed.

Right, and your attempts at insulting me (unprovoked at that) are not an example of trolling. Anything else you have to say is meaningless at this point.

If you read the thread, you would realise that I have already address the issue you raised. But don't let that stop you flinging insults.

I have read the thread but as usual you do tend to go on and on and on and on......It seems no matter what anybody says in response to your thread is meaningless because you don't care what anybody else has to say.

whitebait01

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how mixed race people are considered (or what the majority identify them as) in countries where the majority of people are black?

DonDaddyD

Ginjafro wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ginjafro wrote:

I never said it was a huge problem. It is something I have pondered for a while, yes. My life will go on however, even if this issue isn't resolved in the course of this conversation.

And "pondering" is what you tend to do, for what purpose I am not sure but I have considered you are quite possibly a closet troll either in denial or trying to find a way to "come out" without being noticed.

Right, and your attempts at insulting me (unprovoked at that) are not an example of trolling. Anything else you have to say is meaningless at this point.

If you read the thread, you would realise that I have already address the issue you raised. But don't let that stop you flinging insults.

I have read the thread but as usual you do tend to go on and on and on and on......It seems no matter what anybody says in response to your thread is meaningless because you don't care what anybody else has to say.

Yawn... troll... Yawn.

Do you have anything to say that is relevant to the actual topic?

BigJimmyB

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Because he doesn't think it has any teeth and that it doesn't work. I think that on this matter, he is being a role model for player's on the receiving end of racial abuse to stand up for themselves. T-shirts and badges are all well and good, but when actual abuse is happening/has happened, the campaign needs the teeth to actually do something to end the racial abuse.

I agree with your point, but I think that creating a 'black' group will engender marginalisation. I think there is under representation at many levels in sport (and elsewhere) for non-white's, but I don't think ethnic or colour-specific groups are the answer. Inclusion is what this should be about and specific groups smack of exclusion to me.

Perhaps Rio and Jason Roberts etc should be seeking to work more closely with the FA etc, perhaps in an advisory capacity on such matters?

There needs to be consistency in the handling of such issues, to the point where transgressors are penalised properly, thus creating a deterrent to others.

Some education for those with 'less than enlightened' views is also an option. A lot of racism and bigotry is borne of pure ignorance.

Just my tuppence....

SimonAH

whitebait01 wrote:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how mixed race people are considered (or what the majority identify them as) in countries where the majority of people are black?

In South Africa you have the Cape Coloured.

notsoblue

whitebait01 wrote:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how mixed race people are considered (or what the majority identify them as) in countries where the majority of people are black?

In Trinidad where the mixed race population is I think between 15-20% they're considered to be separate and distinct. They're pretty light skinned and the race mixing happened a number of generations ago. A bit like Cape Coloureds in SA and Creoles in Louisiana. I'd suggest there may be more of a cultural identity for these groups than for mixed race people in the UK who (I would guess) are mostly 1st, 2nd generation mixed race and the result of more recent immigration.

dhope

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ginjafro wrote:

I have read the thread but as usual you do tend to go on and on and on and on......It seems no matter what anybody says in response to your thread is meaningless because you don't care what anybody else has to say.

Yawn... troll... Yawn.

Do you have anything to say that is relevant to the actual topic?

DDD. It's not just trolling. This is exactly what you do.

Everyone has their say and everyone has an opinion. You just refuse to acknowledge that it's a difference of opinion and instead pretend that someone else is wrong.

Personally, I believe your stance on what makes someone black or mixed race is wrong to the point of being offensive. I think that if you replaced every mention of the word black with the word white then your point of view could end up on a BNP piece. Now I know that it's not as simple as that, but I still disagree with you. As do others.

That's all fine. But you have a real habit of just rehashing your opinion and never even attempting to accommodate anyone else's opinion.

Ginjafro

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ginjafro wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ginjafro wrote:

I never said it was a huge problem. It is something I have pondered for a while, yes. My life will go on however, even if this issue isn't resolved in the course of this conversation.

And "pondering" is what you tend to do, for what purpose I am not sure but I have considered you are quite possibly a closet troll either in denial or trying to find a way to "come out" without being noticed.

Right, and your attempts at insulting me (unprovoked at that) are not an example of trolling. Anything else you have to say is meaningless at this point.

If you read the thread, you would realise that I have already address the issue you raised. But don't let that stop you flinging insults.

I have read the thread but as usual you do tend to go on and on and on and on......It seems no matter what anybody says in response to your thread is meaningless because you don't care what anybody else has to say.

Yawn... troll... Yawn.

Do you have anything to say that is relevant to the actual topic?

Well I made my point previously, eg how "mixed race" players are exposed to racist abuse but you probably didn't notice because you are too busy deperately striving to be the centre of attention, which is typical troll behaviour. To which I expect you will persist in having the "last word" but hey ho, ramble on.....yawn. :roll:

DonDaddyD

Gin wrote:

Well I made my point previously, eg how "mixed race" players are exposed to racist abuse but you probably didn't notice because you are too busy deperately striving to be the centre of attention, which is typical troll behaviour. To which I expect you will persist in having the "last word" but hey ho, ramble on.....yawn. :roll:

Ah nut's you played the "you must have the last word card" while actually attempting to have the last word. Schoolboy stuff.

I did explain in my previous post that the points you have raised have already been addressed. [Hold on]

[Back]

Post by DonDaddyD » 23 Oct 2012 11:15
The players are getting abused because of the colour of their skin and this wrong.

I think referring to them or not referring to them as black in British media has little to do with the racial abuse they receive. They are abused on the basis of their skins complexion.

What I believe is that referring to them as black, when they clearly are not, is wrong in and of itself. It, for me, stems from deep rooted racial prejudice. I.e. the offspring of a black slave/second class citizen and a white person would be considered black and with that carried limited social standing. Yes those social and class barriers may have been mostly knocked down but the logic and connotations still appear to be there.

What makes someone white, black or Asian? Or better yet, you have a child with a black or white person (so if you're white you've had a child with a black person or visa versa) is that child black, white or mixed race?

First page. However, can you manage a post without throwing an insult?

rjsterry

dhope wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Ginjafro wrote:

I have read the thread but as usual you do tend to go on and on and on and on......It seems no matter what anybody says in response to your thread is meaningless because you don't care what anybody else has to say.

Yawn... troll... Yawn.

Do you have anything to say that is relevant to the actual topic?

DDD. It's not just trolling. This is exactly what you do.

Everyone has their say and everyone has an opinion. You just refuse to acknowledge that it's a difference of opinion and instead pretend that someone else is wrong.

Personally, I believe your stance on what makes someone black or mixed race is wrong to the point of being offensive. I think that if you replaced every mention of the word black with the word white then your point of view could end up on a BNP piece. Now I know that it's not as simple as that, but I still disagree with you. As do others.

That's all fine. But you have a real habit of just rehashing your opinion and never even attempting to accommodate anyone else's opinion.

That and having an increasingly thin skin when people get grumpy with him.

notsoblue

Why does this always happen with DDD threads? 6 pages followed by a personal argument and a restatement of the OP.

Anonymous

I think I mentioned this in a former rant - he's not so good at making himself clear (except for the case of the controlling abusive wife, where I think he hit the nail perfectly on the head)

DonDaddyD

dhope wrote:

DDD. It's not just trolling. This is exactly what you do.

It is trolling because the person prefers to hurl insults as oppose to contribute to the thread. Or am I now trolling because I disagree with you... :roll:

dhope wrote:

Everyone has their say and everyone has an opinion. You just refuse to acknowledge that it's a difference of opinion and instead pretend that someone else is wrong.

If I disagree with a view should I agree with it for your appeasement or should I write what I think? Where have I emphatically stated that someones personal experience is wrong? How do you know that I haven't read a post taken on board what they have said and agreed with it. Maybe all you see is predisposed "DDD, I hate DDD"

However, I see this:

DDD wrote:

EKE wrote:

Not so. The offspring would have been referred to as mullato, half-caste or coloured.
That is true, mullato was a name for mixed race people during slavery. I'm talking about the fact that if you were mixed race and light skinned enough not to be considered black you could be born free, whereas your mum would still be slaves.

That is true, mullato was a name for mixed race people during slavery. I'm talking about the fact that if you were mixed race and light skinned enough not to be considered black you could be born free, whereas your mum would still be slaves.

And

DDD wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

There really is no point in sweating over definitions in this way, they're all subjective. For all the talk about specifically how many drops of black or white blood you have in your heritage, it doesn't mean a great deal. How you were raised, and which culture you identify with probably matters more.
This is a good thing you have written.

This is a good thing you have written.

Two examples where I have taken onboard what others have said, there are others but I don't have all day. Has it ever occured that just because I don't always respond with "I agree" it doesn't mean I haven't actually read something and reflected on what has been said. You're assuming I don't and that's your issue.

Anyway:

dhope wrote:

Personally, I believe your stance on what makes someone black or mixed race is wrong to the point of being offensive.

I have a mixed race son because I am black and his mother is white. By definition, in the census and other constructs within this society his etnicity is listed as mixed-race, I am not at fault for that.

I would like my son to appreciate both of his parent's cultures. I don't want my son growing up being called black at the dismissal of his mothers cultural identity within him. I think it would be offensive to do so. Why do you have a problem with me thinking this?

I honestly do not understand how you can see that as offensive - especially as I have explained it before:

DDD wrote:

If Rio called himself white, I would want to know why he didn't acknowledge his black roots and refer to himself as mixed-race.

Same with my son. It's not that I'm saying "They're not like me, get out of my group". What I am saying is that its great you acknowledge the black side of your heritage, why do you not acknowledge the other side?

whitebait01

notsoblue wrote:

whitebait01 wrote:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how mixed race people are considered (or what the majority identify them as) in countries where the majority of people are black?

In Trinidad where the mixed race population is I think between 15-20% they're considered to be separate and distinct. They're pretty light skinned and the race mixing happened a number of generations ago. A bit like Cape Coloureds in SA and Creoles in Louisiana. I'd suggest there may be more of a cultural identity for these groups than for mixed race people in the UK who (I would guess) are mostly 1st, 2nd generation mixed race and the result of more recent immigration.

Interesting stuff... Thanks NSB and SimonAH! They definitely seem like quite distinct groups (from briefly reading wikipedia).

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

I would like my son to appreciate both of his parent's cultures. I don't want my son growing up being called black at the dismissal of his mothers cultural identity within him.

I don't think you're going to have much choice in the matter to be honest. People will describe him based upon their own racial perception. In London no doubt he will be recognised as mixed race by most people, but when he goes back to visit his mum's family in Ireland he'll be considered black. He'll grow up with racial ambiguity simply being part of his life, and I doubt it'll be a particular problem for him at all. I really wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

What people call him doesn't really matter if he's secure in himself and knows where he's come from. If you give him the idea that people calling him black are doing so "at the dismissal of his mother's cultural identity" then he may end up with a chip on his shoulder.

DonDaddyD

Notsoblue, I think you are right. I think it shouldn't be the case.

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I would like my son to appreciate both of his parent's cultures. I don't want my son growing up being called black at the dismissal of his mothers cultural identity within him.

I don't think you're going to have much choice in the matter to be honest. People will describe him based upon their own racial perception. In London no doubt he will be recognised as mixed race by most people, but when he goes back to visit his mum's family in Ireland he'll be considered black. He'll grow up with racial ambiguity simply being part of his life, and I doubt it'll be a particular problem for him at all. I really wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

What people call him doesn't really matter if he's secure in himself and knows where he's come from. If you give him the idea that people calling him black are doing so "at the dismissal of his mother's cultural identity" then he may end up with a chip on his shoulder.

This. Very much so. It was the youngest's 1st birthday the other week and a close friend brought her 2 year old son along. He spent the day happily playing with our daughters and the other children; they weren't bothered about the fact that he is mixed race, so why should we impose all that on to them?