Driving - what would you have done?

Dog Breath

suzyb wrote:

Haven't read full thread as on phone so may not have understood properly. However I thought vehicles on the motorway were supposed to move over or slow down to let others join.

Blimey !! Whys do people think that. It is so totally wrong. And I get really pi$$ed off with drivers who expect that I should move out of their way, even when I can't.

Wrath Rob

jds_1981 wrote:

One of the reasons I'm thinking of getting a more powerful car. Gives you another option than braking.

Yes, you can accelerate to get to the accident faster

meanredspider

Wrath Rob wrote:

jds_1981 wrote:

One of the reasons I'm thinking of getting a more powerful car. Gives you another option than braking.

Yes, you can accelerate to get to the accident faster

Seriously - get a properly fast car and you'll realise that's very true: overtaking is very easy but slowing the thing up for the next bend is sometimes "exciting"

spatuluk

This thing happens to me all the time, except I'm not the car on the sliproad - I'm the coach. Except I'm not in a coach - I'm on a bicycle! In the last month, I've had two people spin their cars trying to get out of sliproads ahead of me (miraculously not hitting anyone else), and a few scary near misses as people slam on the brakes at the very last second.

The hard shoulder may be an excuse, but they're not designed to be driven on - what if there had been a car on it? What if you went over some debris and got a blowout?

Don't be in such a hurry - the extra few seconds aren't worth it.

edit: I've also been the car. I never assume anyone will move over if they haven't already done so, and will only accelerate if they're going a lot slower than me.

mcj78

Peat wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

At the eternal risk of sounding like an utter tosser, I've pretty much always had fast cars.

You had a Ford Probe, right?

Ha! I must have been 14 or so when my then 16yr old sister came in and told me, in giddy excitement "I got a lift home in a SPORTS CAR today!!". Oh course i enquired which one. "It was called a 'Ford Probe'" she beamed.

Even at the age of 14, i didn't have the heart to tell her. :roll:

24v model? = winning like Gareth Cheeseman 8)

walkingbootweather

Well if I'd have been on the bike....



.... probably

First.Aspect

meanredspider wrote:

I admit to getting upset when a slower-moving vehicle pulls out into my lane, baulking me, to let another vehicle join that could easily have adjusted its speed to merge safely. Maybe people (as Suzyb does) believe that you're at an obligation to move out but it does seem that they're happy to baulk someone already on the road in favour of:

a. letting the car joining give way by adjusting their speed
b. adjust their own speed to let the guy merge.

I should add that I'm always the first person to accommodate someone moving out if I see the situation has become a pinch.

It's all about awareness & consideration for other road users - unfortunately, as cyclists, we know that's in pretty short supply.

I think yours is a bit of a crappy attitude, fortunately not mirrored by very many up here. I find that on our predominantly 2 lane dual carriageway roads, people are very cooperative to lane changes. If they weren't it would be hell getting around.

I like that you consent to allow someone to move over when in your judgement the move is justified. No better judge of one's own driving ability than one's self, is there?

Personally, I'd rather move out and not run the risks associated with reliance on traffic joining the motorway figuring out where I am and what adjustments I'm going to make. If a t0$$er in the outside lane is "held up" a femtosecond, I manage to contain my guilt. Frankly I don't mind it in the least when people move in front of me for this reason, because I am intelligent enough to realise that I've been "held up" by at most 10mph out of 60-80mph, for 5 or 10 seconds. What's that, a second? Not much in the interests of safety and good manners.

Shouldn't we, as cyclists subject to enough impatience on our bikes by motorists with a distorted view of the magnitude of "delay", realise that a bit of patience and cooperation is (a) preferable and (b) free.

suzyb

boblo wrote:

suzyb wrote:

Haven't read full thread as on phone so may not have understood properly. However I thought vehicles on the motorway were supposed to move over or slow down to let others join.

Unless you're trolling I hope you don't drive... Unfortunatley. a lot of people seem to think they now have right of way when joining via slips, joining roundabouts or using junctions. I'm afraid, they are just ignorant (of the law/highway code at least if not generally).

I this case? The OP should have bled speed off and slipped in behind the coach.

I wasn't trolling and I do drive.

And that is what I was told when I took additional lessons on motorway driving after passing my test (~11 years ago). Coming up to a slip road, you see something driving up it to join the motorway, pull into the other lane if it is safe to do so or slow down to let them on.

But hey, thanks for pointing out I'm a bad ignorant driver because I assumed my instructor would have a clue what he was talking about.

alan_sherman

I think you took the advice too literally. Move out if it is safe to do so and you don't cause anyone else to change speed or direction. Slow down (probably meaning ease off the accelerator, not brake) with the caveat as before.

I do wonder what people are thinking when they pull out of slip roads when there isn't a safe gap. I mean being rammed from behind can't be fun. Stopping at the end of the slip road is preferable, but do keep a check on things coming up from behind and be prepared to drive onto the hard shoulder to avoid a blind idiot coming up behind and not seeing you.

meanredspider

First Aspect wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I admit to getting upset when a slower-moving vehicle pulls out into my lane, baulking me, to let another vehicle join that could easily have adjusted its speed to merge safely. Maybe people (as Suzyb does) believe that you're at an obligation to move out but it does seem that they're happy to baulk someone already on the road in favour of:

a. letting the car joining give way by adjusting their speed
b. adjust their own speed to let the guy merge.

I should add that I'm always the first person to accommodate someone moving out if I see the situation has become a pinch.

It's all about awareness & consideration for other road users - unfortunately, as cyclists, we know that's in pretty short supply.

I think yours is a bit of a crappy attitude, fortunately not mirrored by very many up here. I find that on our predominantly 2 lane dual carriageway roads, people are very cooperative to lane changes. If they weren't it would be hell getting around.

I like that you consent to allow someone to move over when in your judgement the move is justified. No better judge of one's own driving ability than one's self, is there?

Personally, I'd rather move out and not run the risks associated with reliance on traffic joining the motorway figuring out where I am and what adjustments I'm going to make. If a t0$$er in the outside lane is "held up" a femtosecond, I manage to contain my guilt. Frankly I don't mind it in the least when people move in front of me for this reason, because I am intelligent enough to realise that I've been "held up" by at most 10mph out of 60-80mph, for 5 or 10 seconds. What's that, a second? Not much in the interests of safety and good manners.

Shouldn't we, as cyclists subject to enough impatience on our bikes by motorists with a distorted view of the magnitude of "delay", realise that a bit of patience and cooperation is (a) preferable and (b) free.

I think you've misunderstood me. Either that or you fall into the class of driver that you are so keen to berate.

When a driver in lane 1 sees someone trying to join the dual carriageway he has 3 choices:
1. Carry on at his current speed and lane and let the driver joining the road sort himself out
2. Adjust his own speed to aid the driver joining
3. Not adjust his speed but just move out into lane 2

Option 2 is often the most considerate thing to do but, no, option 3 is what so many people do - often with hardly a glance in their mirrors. Why hold yourself up when you can hold someone else up? I honestly don't mind being held up if there's a need but, all to often, it's done just to avoid being held up themselves. And we're making out as if joining a road is a difficult manoeuvre. In half of Europe they manage to have people join and leave in the same stretch of Tarmac. Equally, I join the A9 on a slip road. It's single carriageway so there's no option but to find a gap - it's never a problem provided there's the tiniest bit of cooperation from the driver on the A9 itself: lifting just enough to create a gap. There's never a need for them to swerve to the opposite side of the road.

First.Aspect

Just calling it how I see it.

In reality I do both the lifting off to leave a gap - the person joining probably doesn't even notice - or moving out if there is a train of cars coming on, just as you do.

What jumped out at me about your post was the notion that there is some bloke blatting around the highlands getting irritated if, in his view, a lane change was unecessary. My point, which you missed, is that it doesn't significantly hold you up, not unless you are going collossally and ignorantly fast (which plenty do on our comparatively deserted roads).

And to be irritated at not really being held up is to do to others what others do to you when you are on your bicycle.

meanredspider

First Aspect wrote:

Just calling it how I see it.

In reality I do both the lifting off to leave a gap - the person joining probably doesn't even notice - or moving out if there is a train of cars coming on, just as you do.

What jumped out at me about your post was the notion that there is some bloke blatting around the highlands getting irritated if, in his view, a lane change was unecessary. My point, which you missed, is that it doesn't significantly hold you up, not unless you are going collossally and ignorantly fast (which plenty do on our comparatively deserted roads).

And to be irritated at not really being held up is to do to others what others do to you when you are on your bicycle.

Well you read it very wrong. Especially as there's almost no dual carriageway in the Highlands and, what little there is, has almost no slip roads. Nope, my experience is from much further down south. A single car will come down a slip road and a single car in lane 1 will just swing out into lane 2 as if a child has stepped into lane 1. I'm always outwardly patient but it seems to exhibit a total lack of awareness or consideration or, TBH, judgement. That's what irritates me not being held up. I'm often doing an 8 hour drive - a few seconds here or there makes no difference. It's also a behaviour that has come about more recently maybe as lorries have been limited. You then get the absurd situation of two lorries, both hard on their identical limiters, travelling side-by-side for mile after mile neither wanting to lift and concede 60 feet

jejv

asquithea wrote:

Highway code is pretty clear cut - he had right of way - but bearing in mind that he must have had his foot down to keep speed up the hill, and he could see me quite easily, I felt a little aggrieved (there may have been some swearing).

Yeah. But the highway code is cunning enought not to tell you what is the right thing to do.
To not provide a "Standard Operating Procedure".

In a motor vehicle, on the dual-carriageway, if you know there's an on-ramp coming up, and you can move out of the inside lane, do that. Then there's less conflict with joining traffic. Oh, you might be holding up someone important in the fast lane. Well, whatever. Then traffic might be too dense for that.

Joining. You can't always win. If there hadn't been a hard shoulder - if it hadn't been a motorway - you'd have been off the road. Even waiting indefinitely at the give-way lines at the end of the feeder lane may not be safe if you are joining after a bend that is blind at 70mph.

Like folks say, most vehicles brake faster than they accelerate, so flooring it, then braking as soon as you can see that there is no gap may be sensible.

My idea is something like:
- Turn onto sliproad
- Take up space to prevent overtaking in-lane on the sliproad - you ride a bike, right ?
- Stay slow until there is space in front on the sliproad
- Floor it in a low gear until matched speed of traffic, or can see that there is no gap.
- If no gap, brake and repeat. Sometimes braking a bit is enough to fit in a gap.
- Might end up stationary at end of sliproad if there is no gap.

There is no guaranteed right answer.
Flooring the throttle in the low gears might help for acceleration, if you're not already doing that.

mouth

asquithea wrote:

I had a bad time trying to merge onto the M4 from the A419

Twas dark, raining, unfamiliar, and (significantly) uphill. THESE THINGS ALSO APPLY TO THE COACH DRIVERComing down the slip-road (roughly at the pic) I got overhauled and run off the road by a coach in the nearside line.

Shoulder-checked to see it going a little faster - about where the grass starts - but my little car wouldn't get up quite enough speed to match. I expected (hoped?) the coach would bleed off a little speed AND PERHAPS LOSE HIS ECONOMY BONUS BY HAVING TO RE-ACCELERATE or switch lanes MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN AN OPTION IF THERE WAS SOMETHING NEXT TO HIM, but realized too late he wasn't going to do anything of the kind. Ran out of sliproad and had to dive for the hard shoulder while the coach eaaassed past.

Highway code is pretty clear cut - he had right of way THIS- but bearing in mind that he must have had his foot down to keep speed up the hill, and he could see me quite easily NOT NECESSARILY, I felt a little aggrieved (there may have been some swearing).

Bearing in mind the dark and crap visibility, what would you have done?
- Pretty much what I did, running off onto the hard shoulder?
- Immediate hard braking to come to a stop by the end of the slip?
- Something else? THIS

(Curious, 'cause I've never got trapped like that before)

I'm a bus driver by day (and sometimes night).

You can't rely on the road conditions or use them as an excuse. The same for both parties.

From a professional point of view I hope and pray he wasn't trying to save his economy bonus BUT he may have decided that it was your problem and you could deal with it. I'm not saying that this was OK of him but I could see where he was coming from if so. I secretly hope this wasn't this either.

Switching lanes was likely not an option because if he'd seen you because I'm sure he would have moved.

As for whether he'd even seen you in the first place it's possible he didn't. There's so many blind spots on a modern vehicle before too much longer we're gonna have to look out the back for a decent view........
He had right of way but would have moved if appropriate I think. If I was in the coach and was trapped in the lane being unable to move over I feel I would have maintained my own speed and position which unfortunately would have left you to sort yourself out. You would have needed to slow down and feed in behind the coach Generally I'd have expected you to make your decision at the top of the slip road.

peat

jejv wrote:

My idea is something like:


- Floor it in a low gear until matched speed of traffic, or can see that there is no gap.
- If no gap, brake and repeat. Sometimes braking a bit is enough to fit in a gap.
- Might end up stationary at end of sliproad if there is no gap.

I know i keep banging on, but stopping has to be the last last last option.

If you match your speed to lane 1 correctly, it is easy for a gap to be created even in peak time (assuming that the people in the lane are not complete arses).

I know the junction in question, it's not too far from me. It tends to get quite congested there due to the increase in gradient that starts underneath the interchange. The lorries and buses start tugging a bit there and the traffic tends to fan out as vans etc try to overtake the slower vehicles.

I know that you complain that your C2 is gutless, but it should be easily possible to accelerate to 60mph on a downramp. Accelerate hard, change gear at (just taken a look at a pic of a C2 dashboard) 5500/6000 rpm (don't let it get to the limiter - that will kill momentum) and you should be whistling along by the time you need to merge.

jedster

mean red spider,

You make a fair point but dont you think in that situation (car on slip road trying to negotiate with drive in inside lane, you in outside lane) the outside lane driver should also anticipate the problem and either accelerate or ease off to let the inside lane driver move over. That's what I try to do. Normally you have enough time to do that and let the traffic flow

meanredspider

jedster wrote:

mean red spider,

You make a fair point but dont you think in that situation (car on slip road trying to negotiate with drive in inside lane, you in outside lane) the outside lane driver should also anticipate the problem and either accelerate or ease off to let the inside lane driver move over. That's what I try to do. Normally you have enough time to do that and let the traffic flow

Yes - you are absolutely right - and I do anticipate people doing it (please don't conjure up a picture of me having to slam on the brakes, flashing my lights and leaning on the horn...). That doesn't make what the lane 1 person does either right or even necessary. What bugs me is the habit of people jumping out of lane 1 at the merest hint of a car looking to join (often, seemingly with the manoeuvre, signal, mirror in that order). The car joining often ends up well ahead or well behind them too. I often drive down south with a car transporter trailer on the back - that's a significant vehicle in length - yet, even in the busiest traffic, I don't have issues merging: it just needs a bit of planning, a bit of awareness, a bit of judgement and a bit of behaving predictably - I've never once found myself (ever - in my entire 30 years of driving) stopped at the end of a slip road or running along the hard shoulder.

jonomc4

Generally speaking I would have to save the OP is wrong and should have known his car and judged the up comming bus speed and know that he had to slow down and let the bus pass - you cannot assume that the bus will move into lane two or that it will slow down - I think it is called anticipation and the lack of it is the reason why so many people on bikes get hit by cars. I cannot remember in 30 years of driving ever having to stop on a slip road.

Alternately buy a decent car with enough poke to out accelerate a bus (not exactly an F1 car) - you need a car that can leave the slip road at 80mph min

Kieran_Burns

Double level slip roads like this one: http://goo.gl/maps/TFpfZ

make for the flip side of the equation. You often get people hitting the A50 at 3 figure speeds here. It can make for frantic braking from all parties at times.

bails87

Like others above, I've never come close to having to stop on the sliproad (apart from in traffic, obv). But I've also never seen a driver veer out into lane 2 to let someone else into lane 1. I've had plenty of drivers who could have moved over but didn't, but it's my job as the driver on the sliproad to find a space, not to expect anyone to move out.

tailwindhome

Would the coach driver in the OP not be (possibly) guilty of inconsiderate driving?

First.Aspect

meanredspider wrote:

jedster wrote:

mean red spider,

You make a fair point but dont you think in that situation (car on slip road trying to negotiate with drive in inside lane, you in outside lane) the outside lane driver should also anticipate the problem and either accelerate or ease off to let the inside lane driver move over. That's what I try to do. Normally you have enough time to do that and let the traffic flow

Yes - you are absolutely right - and I do anticipate people doing it (please don't conjure up a picture of me having to slam on the brakes, flashing my lights and leaning on the horn...). That doesn't make what the lane 1 person does either right or even necessary. What bugs me is the habit of people jumping out of lane 1 at the merest hint of a car looking to join (often, seemingly with the manoeuvre, signal, mirror in that order). The car joining often ends up well ahead or well behind them too. I often drive down south with a car transporter trailer on the back - that's a significant vehicle in length - yet, even in the busiest traffic, I don't have issues merging: it just needs a bit of planning, a bit of awareness, a bit of judgement and a bit of behaving predictably - I've never once found myself (ever - in my entire 30 years of driving) stopped at the end of a slip road or running along the hard shoulder.

I get what you are saying, and there is a grain of truth in it. But the mistake you are making is assuming that the car joining the carriageway will do what you would do, or will respond in the way you expect if you change speed, or otherwise.

But the people who move out more often than you would are probably doing so because they assume (or at least I assume) guy joining the carriageway is a total f*cktard who hasn't checked the mirror and is eating whilst having an argument on a mobile phone.

We probably don't differ too much in approach, and I don't mean to bust your balls about it. I'd just rather move out once in a while and run the (in my estimation) lesser risk of annoying someone who is very likely speeding, as compared to rely on someone being aware enough to check their blind spot.

bails87

TailWindHome wrote:

Would the coach driver in the OP not be (possibly) guilty of inconsiderate driving?

Guilty as in committing an offence in the eyes of the law, or just not beign as considerate as he could have been?

The former, no, absolutely not. The latter, possibly, he's not done the OP a favour, rather than actually wronging him.

BelgianBeerGeek

I have a driving licence and am therefore qualified to comment
OP, you failed to anticipate and therefore ballsed up. Don't worry, we all do it from time to time. Apart from me, who has never made an error. You drive on the left and give way to the right, something that seems to utterly baffle most motorists eg at roundabouts.
Drop it down some gears, thrash it a bit and use the hard shoulder. Bit naughty, but not as dangerous as stopping. If I was nicked by the fuzz, that would be my defence.