Royal Marines charged with murder

Frank the tank

Of an Afghan insurgeant.

FFS, do me a favour are these lads at war or not?

pb21

Frank the tank wrote:

Of an Afghan insurgeant.

FFS, do me a favour are these lads at war or not?

As I understand it their are 'rules of engagement' and I guess these weren't followed in this case. He may have been an insurgent surrendering?

fast as fupp

its not a war.

t.m.h.n.e.t

fast as fupp wrote:

its not our war.

8)

Frank the tank

fast as fupp wrote:

its not a war.

I usually agree with you fella, but I get the impression a fair few are coming home in coffins and many more in ambulances. If it's not a war, I don't know what is!

Frank the tank

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:

fast as fupp wrote:

its not our war.

8)

That, I do agree with.

Cleat Eastwood

we are part of a nato lead invasion force, it's not a war. Brutalise a man and he can only do what the brutalised do. Not only the soldiers but also those who sent the soldiers there should be up in court. Freedom for tooting.

Cleat Eastwood

this made me smile

declan1

pb21 wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Of an Afghan insurgeant.

FFS, do me a favour are these lads at war or not?

As I understand it their are 'rules of engagement' and I guess these weren't followed in this case. He may have been an insurgent surrendering?

These rules of engagement are fine in a normal war. This isn't a normal war. Do the insurgents use rules of engagement? Would they care if they murdered our civilians? No.

Omar Little

Really needs more details before you can form judgement on this one way or another.

verylonglegs

Omar Little wrote:

Really needs more details before you can form judgement on this one way or another.

Exactly, with so few details known there isn't anything to say.

Frank the tank

verylonglegs wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

Really needs more details before you can form judgement on this one way or another.

Exactly, with so few details known there isn't anything to say.

Not falling out with you guys but this "does my head in". It's almost reminicent of the troubles in N Ireland, the IRA used to argue they were fighting a war until one of their own were killed then they'd be claiming it was murder.

Rules of engagement my @rse either bring the boys home (my prefered option) or give them carte blanche to sort the sh1ts out.

rick_chasey

Frank the tank wrote:

Of an Afghan insurgeant.

FFS, do me a favour are these lads at war or not?

Doesn't mean you can't be done for murder.

Think Vietnam blah blah.

Frank the tank

Rick Chasey wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Of an Afghan insurgeant.

FFS, do me a favour are these lads at war or not?

Doesn't mean you can't be done for murder.

Think Vietnam blah blah.

Fair point, war does horrible things to otherwise normal people.

tim_wand

Reportedly, the incident involved 5 Marines discussing what to do with a wounded gun man who had been firing upon them from a compound.

3 Commando had lost 23 men that summer alone in Helmand during that summer.

If someone is quite content to take shots at you and your colleagues until wounded to the extent that they can no longer do so, then I for one aint going to be breaking out the field dressings to patch him up afterwards.

Its a War, 433 British service personnel have been killed in Afghanistan to date. Should they be there? IMO no, but whilst they are, they are entitled to a bit more than JSP 332 "Rules of Engagement" to make sure that they and their colleagues make it home.

MisterMuncher

Without the rules of engagement, what you'd have would be merely competing forms of barbarism. He who fights monsters and all that.

baldwin471

tim wand wrote:

Reportedly, the incident involved 5 Marines discussing what to do with a wounded gun man who had been firing upon them from a compound.

3 Commando had lost 23 men that summer alone in Helmand during that summer.

If someone is quite content to take shots at you and your colleagues until wounded to the extent that they can no longer do so, then I for one aint going to be breaking out the field dressings to patch him up afterwards.

Its a War, 433 British service personnel have been killed in Afghanistan to date. Should they be there? IMO no, but whilst they are, they are entitled to a bit more than JSP 332 "Rules of Engagement" to make sure that they and their colleagues make it home.

Agreed on every thing else but it isn't a war. Look at what Cleat said

Frank the tank

baldwin471 wrote:

tim wand wrote:

Reportedly, the incident involved 5 Marines discussing what to do with a wounded gun man who had been firing upon them from a compound.

3 Commando had lost 23 men that summer alone in Helmand during that summer.

If someone is quite content to take shots at you and your colleagues until wounded to the extent that they can no longer do so, then I for one aint going to be breaking out the field dressings to patch him up afterwards.

Its a War, 433 British service personnel have been killed in Afghanistan to date. Should they be there? IMO no, but whilst they are, they are entitled to a bit more than JSP 332 "Rules of Engagement" to make sure that they and their colleagues make it home.

Agreed on every thing else but it isn't a war. Look at what Cleat said

The powers that be and come to that posters on here can call it whatever they like but,given the list of dead and wounded and looking at the footage that appears on my tv it sure as hell sounds and looks like a war to me.

daviesee

Isn't it a bit like the fighting a bear thing, it's not over till the bear says it is?

The insurgents are at war with our soldiers whatever we may think (or call it) so as long as they are there......

murf1480

The Rules of Engagment are on our side believe it or not (not the like the NI days) these guys must have seriously broke them to end up in this kind of trouble. Now believe me I would like to see the RtE ripped up but this would cause all sorts of problems for everybody.

bianchimoon

Wherever, whenever whatever happened, somebody on the ground must have felt strongly enough to report this. I doubt it was the insurgents family making a formal complaint? Which means another soldier british, american or afghan was disturbed enough by whatever happened to tell their superiors. Doubtful they acted legitimately within RoE as it wouldn't have gone this far, but you either have rules of engagement or you don't and we need to keep some humanity even given this inhumane conflict . One thing's for sure we ain't going to win this American 'war' and the real people who should be answering in a court of law will continue living the good life and making millions.

daviesee

bianchimoon wrote:

Wherever, whenever whatever happened, somebody on the ground must have felt strongly enough to report this. I doubt it was the insurgents family making a formal complaint? Which means another soldier british, american or afghan was disturbed enough by whatever happened to tell their superiors. Doubtful they acted legitimately within RoE as it wouldn't have gone this far, but you either have rules of engagement or you don't and we need to keep some humanity even given this inhumane conflict . One thing's for sure we ain't going to win this American 'war' and the real people who should be answering in a court of law will continue living the good life and making millions.

Reported by the police investigating a squaddie for something unrelated. Searched his laptop, found the video and got the ball rolling.

reformedfatty

murf1480 wrote:

The Rules of Engagment are on our side believe it or not (not the like the NI days) these guys must have seriously broke them to end up in this kind of trouble. Now believe me I would like to see the RtE ripped up but this would cause all sorts of problems for everybody.

On our side? I don't know the current RoE, but when you have someone trying to be sneaky, watching you, with a rifle pointed at you and you aren't allowed to shoot them, I wouldn't characterise that as 'On our side', even from a hearts and minds perspective.

OffTheBackAdam

From what's come out in the media, there is a good case here.
Group of Marines standing around a wounded man, "what shall we do with him"?
Bang?

murf1480

reformedfatty wrote:

murf1480 wrote:

The Rules of Engagment are on our side believe it or not (not the like the NI days) these guys must have seriously broke them to end up in this kind of trouble. Now believe me I would like to see the RtE ripped up but this would cause all sorts of problems for everybody.

On our side? I don't know the current RoE, but when you have someone trying to be sneaky, watching you, with a rifle pointed at you and you aren't allowed to shoot them, I wouldn't characterise that as 'On our side', even from a hearts and minds perspective.

Trust me I do know them and that is why I can say that

mamba80

Without any sort of rules of engagement, you end up with death squads & torture - say German SS, Serbian militia?
BUT its very difficult for the troops on the gnd, they have seen buddies killed and maimed and are in constant danger of being attacked etc - to expect them to be in action one minute and then red cross medics the next, is asking alot of anyone - surely this could have been dealt without going to Ct Martial ?
Having said that, perhaps a CM should be given for total stupidity for keeping this stuff (and videoing it in the first place) on a LT.
As this drags on, its going to do wonders for moral!!! not to mention a PR goldcard for the Taliban.
Get out them all out now - why wait till 2014 and even more deaths ???

iainment

If our presence there is about imposing democracy, rule of law etc. It's hard to see how they can not be tried.

If it's about revenge then they shouldn't.

It just depends what sort of world you want really.

rick_chasey

The US experience in Vietnam, with "every dead Vietnamese is a Viet cong" is exactly what these punishments are there for - so that that will be avoided.

Rightly so. Just because you're in a warzone with a gun and a uniform doesn't mean you can play god.

Neil Buckley

Murder is murder, the new RofE are robust enough to get you out of the shit when you need to get out of it and robustly defend yourself. If we start doing that then we are as bad as the insurency.

murf1480

Neil Buckley wrote:

Murder is murder, the new RofE are robust enough to get you out of the shoot when you need to get out of it and robustly defend yourself. If we start doing that then we are as bad as the insurency.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^

de_sisti

Why the hell did the marines film what they were doing? Are they that thick? I also think that
the troops should leave asap.