Yates to confess??

Pross

Maybe Yates genuinely didn't see anything. Maybe they kept things hidden from anyone within the team who didn't need to know. I'm sure he would have suspected and is being at best a little careful with the truth but maybe he didn't actually see it with his own eyes (just to plpay devil's advocate).

andyp

I know he gives the impression of being thick, but I don't think he's blind or deaf.

thomthom

Pross wrote:

Maybe Yates genuinely didn't see anything. Maybe they kept things hidden from anyone within the team who didn't need to know. I'm sure he would have suspected and is being at best a little careful with the truth but maybe he didn't actually see it with his own eyes (just to plpay devil's advocate).

The link with Motoman pretty much buries that theory.

Gazzaputt

RichN95 wrote:

It seems to me that some people are very disappointed not to see Yates's name anywhere in the evidence. All those sharpened axes and nowhere to use them. All this evidence with plenty of teams looking directly involved in doping, but you need to hark back to a little pill popping back in the 80s.

Sky's only real crime was to naively set their standards too high at the start and not being omniscient when recruiting. I'm sure they'd do it like Garmin if they could start again. But they can't so some will criticise from their high horse even if they think they're clean. You're making them same mistake they made and being stupidly idealistic.

Either you think they are doping or not. If you think they are then bash away, but if you don't then stop using the 'transparency' excuse to undermine their efforts. If some of their staff did things 10 or 20 years ago, it's mostly irrelevant, what they do now is important.

The most level headed posting of today. Chapeau sir.

chipperleenie

What about Michael Rogers too, he is heavily implicated in being involved with training camps for EPO with Ferrari (Or should I say shumi - just to keep him unkown!)

itisaboutthebike

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/yates-denies-seeing-anything-dodgy-at-discovery-channel-in-2005

SY - you're an ar*sehole

finchy

So what should Yates say? Even if he just says that he knew what was going on but was not actively engaged in the team's doping programme, he would get kicked off the Sky management team and probably never work in cycling again. He's not exactly young enough to start a new career and probably isn't as rich as some of the others who were riding for USPS/Disco at the time, so he'd be completely and utterly f'ked.

It's OK for people to sit here on a forum calling him names, but in his place I'd probably shut up as well.

slim_boy_fat

jibberjim wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

I do agree. I think there is a lot of attacking Sky from a moral ground that if it was any higher, would induce vertigo. But I do think that Brailsford needs to change the way in which he's addressing things, sharpish, or lose a lot of credibility - which is turn will start to reflect on his riders.

Surely Sky's problem is one of gross incompetence - atrocious media training of riders, atrocious management of stories, poor choices of staff etc. So how does such an incompetent organisation get so much success?

Probably because they are far from incompetent.

Richmond Racer

But the Forum and Twitter and Media moral majority want heads...the flaming torches and pitchforks are on the march... :roll:

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

Sky's only real crime was to naively set their standards too high at the start and not being omniscient when recruiting. I'm sure they'd do it like Garmin if they could start again. But they can't so some will criticise from their high horse even if they think they're clean. You're making them same mistake they made and being stupidly idealistic.

My issue is he's not changing his position. He knows Rogers has history, and I've got a shiny fiver says he knew about Barry. 10% of the riders on Sky in 2011 are mentioned in this whole mess.

As you say, Garmin got it right, but Sky continuing with the same position doesn't help them at all. For such a well financed team with people who do everything they're a walking PR disaster.

andyp

As I speculated to a friend today, do Sky use the same PR agency as the UCI?

jawooga

Dave B is not guilty of anything other than, as someone said, setting his recruitment standards unrealistically high. I would have a lot of respect for him and I believe it would be positive for cycling if he now said


I was unrealistic, I want to encourage openness and Garmin have set the right model for the age we operate in now.
My staff can admit past misdemeanors and not be afraid of being sacked.
With staff/riders with a history, we have a duty to (continue to) be more and more transparent.
We have a responsibility to help rehabilitate staff/riders for the good of the sport without fear of retribution.

eh

Let's be honest Sky have / had a heap of people with dodgy pasts on their books and big Dave B knows it. He is not the innocent, naive guy he tries to make out. However, people like Sutton and Yates help them get results. Whether the riders are clean or not in doing so heaven only knows

jawooga

Call it stupid, call it naive, whatever. The point is that AFAIK, they've done nothing worse than talking the talk a bit much. That should not stop them from re-assessing their public relations strategy, and eating some humble pie if for the greater good.

Abdoujaparov

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sky's only real crime was to naively set their standards too high at the start and not being omniscient when recruiting. I'm sure they'd do it like Garmin if they could start again. But they can't so some will criticise from their high horse even if they think they're clean. You're making them same mistake they made and being stupidly idealistic.

My issue is he's not changing his position. He knows Rogers has history, and I've got a shiny fiver says he knew about Barry. 10% of the riders on Sky in 2011 are mentioned in this whole mess.

As you say, Garmin got it right, but Sky continuing with the same position doesn't help them at all. For such a well financed team with people who do everything they're a walking PR disaster.

For a PR disaster they've got a pretty good reputation. How many Team Sky shirts do you see out there nowadays? It's only with a select group of hardcore cycling fans that they struggle and, taking a step back, that was to be expected.

Le Commentateur

Somebody in another thread referred to Liggett as a holocaust denyer, which made me think a bit about comparisons with Germany before and after WW2.

Before, if you wanted to get on in life in a professional career in 1930s Germany you had to be a member of the Nazi party, with its attendant corrupting ideology. After the war, although the big fish were made an example of, many minor Nazis remained embedded in education, in industry and local government, keeping their heads down and keeping silent about their past as the country moved towards a democratic and prosperous future. Without them could the country have recovered as fast as it did?

The question with Yates may be, is he one of the big fish to be made an example of, or should he be quietly tolerated as he contributes to a newer less corrupted structure.

RichN95.

eh wrote:

Let's be honest Sky have / had a heap of people with dodgy pasts on their books and big Dave B knows it. He is not the innocent, naive guy he tries to make out. However, people like Sutton and Yates help them get results. Whether the riders are clean or not in doing so heaven only knows

The thing is, it's unlikely to have been Brailsford who made the recruitment policy. He, himself, has been quite happy to pick Millar for the GB team ever since he returned from his ban (and tried to get for Sky). The policy was laid down by some brand management guy at BSkyB who hasn't a clue who Michele Ferrari is.
It seems clear to me that Brailsford knows the flaws in the policy, got it overturned for staff to hire Julich (and keep others) and may now use the Barry situation to quietly change the policies to the same as Garmin's - which won't be a bad thing (although he'll be predictably slaughtered for it).

rob churchill

jibberjim wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

I do agree. I think there is a lot of attacking Sky from a moral ground that if it was any higher, would induce vertigo. But I do think that Brailsford needs to change the way in which he's addressing things, sharpish, or lose a lot of credibility - which is turn will start to reflect on his riders.

Surely Sky's problem is one of gross incompetence - atrocious media training of riders, atrocious management of stories, poor choices of staff etc. So how does such an incompetent organisation get so much success?

Damn, so that's why I'm crap on hills - not enough media training.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

eh wrote:

Let's be honest Sky have / had a heap of people with dodgy pasts on their books and big Dave B knows it. He is not the innocent, naive guy he tries to make out. However, people like Sutton and Yates help them get results. Whether the riders are clean or not in doing so heaven only knows

The thing is, it's unlikely to have been Brailsford who made the recruitment policy. He, himself, has been quite happy to pick Millar for the GB team ever since he returned from his ban (and tried to get for Sky). The policy was laid down by some brand management guy at BSkyB who hasn't a clue who Michele Ferrari is.
It seems clear to me that Brailsford knows the flaws in the policy, got it overturned for staff to hire Julich (and keep others) and may now use the Barry situation to quietly change the policies to the same as Garmin's - which won't be a bad thing (although he'll be predictably slaughtered for it).

Doing it quietly is the problems though. Explain to the sponsors why there position is wrong, announce know you're wrong and this is how you will move forward. Simples.

LeicesterLad

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

eh wrote:

Let's be honest Sky have / had a heap of people with dodgy pasts on their books and big Dave B knows it. He is not the innocent, naive guy he tries to make out. However, people like Sutton and Yates help them get results. Whether the riders are clean or not in doing so heaven only knows

The thing is, it's unlikely to have been Brailsford who made the recruitment policy. He, himself, has been quite happy to pick Millar for the GB team ever since he returned from his ban (and tried to get for Sky). The policy was laid down by some brand management guy at BSkyB who hasn't a clue who Michele Ferrari is.
It seems clear to me that Brailsford knows the flaws in the policy, got it overturned for staff to hire Julich (and keep others) and may now use the Barry situation to quietly change the policies to the same as Garmin's - which won't be a bad thing (although he'll be predictably slaughtered for it).

Doing it quietly is the problems though. Explain to the sponsors why there position is wrong, announce know you're wrong and this is how you will move forward. Simples.

Iain have you had a drink?

EDIT: You've fixed it. Sort of.

iainf72

Typing on my nexus 7 - little keyboard

Richmond Racer

payment to Iain's Swiss bank account from one Mr D Brailsford, Manchester, for advisory services

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Doing it quietly is the problems though. Explain to the sponsors why there position is wrong, announce know you're wrong and this is how you will move forward. Simples.

Doing it quietly is easy. Release it just before the Tour de France presentation. (Say how you put Barry in a position where he couldn't be honest, praise Vaughters, Garmin and their approach, blah,blah). It has to be done though.

itisaboutthebike

All everyone wants is for Yatesy to tell the truth..........which non of us thinks(well knows) he's doing at the mo

RichN95.

itisaboutthebike wrote:

All everyone wants is for Yatesy to tell the truth..........which non of us thinks(well knows) he's doing at the mo

I don't. I just want people not to dope anymore. I don't really care what people did several years ago as long as their not doing it now. But then I think clean sport is more important than gossip.
You don't want him to tell the truth either. You just want him to confirm what you think is true.

RoadPainter

johnfinch wrote:

So what should Yates say? Even if he just says that he knew what was going on but was not actively engaged in the team's doping programme, he would get kicked off the Sky management team and probably never work in cycling again. He's not exactly young enough to start a new career and probably isn't as rich as some of the others who were riding for USPS/Disco at the time, so he'd be completely and utterly f'ked.

It's OK for people to sit here on a forum calling him names, but in his place I'd probably shut up as well.

I understand your argument, but if he's going to shut up, he shouldn't go on 5live!!!!

maglianera

So if people don't care what people did years ago why the outpouring of vitriol when Vino won the Olympic road race.

Its ok for Yates to be tolerated but not someone who served their ban?

RichN95.

maglianera wrote:

So if people don't care what people did years ago why the outpouring of vitriol when Vino won the Olympic road race.

Because people don't like him. It's that simple.
Are we obliged to love him once his ban is up?

dougzz

RichN95 wrote:

itisaboutthebike wrote:

All everyone wants is for Yatesy to tell the truth..........which non of us thinks(well knows) he's doing at the mo

I don't. I just want people not to dope anymore. I don't really care what people did several years ago as long as their not doing it now. But then I think clean sport is more important than gossip.
You don't want him to tell the truth either. You just want him to confirm what you think is true.

Without going all 'Truth and Reconciliation' - which I think you previously described as gossip and something - and you may be right. But on some level don't you think that what' s happened before needs to be confronted to convince all of us that things have moved on. Basso and his I only thought about it BS, Bert and his moody steak, it's all just suggests that some riders just don't believe clean is the way to go. I can't accept Valverde and Contador are riding paniagua as Tyler likes to say. I realise I'm sort of confirming what you say, but I just feel without some proper acknowledgement of what they really did, you can't deep down believe they're clean now. I know all what was said about Contador and his performance in the Vuelta, he couldn't maintain a break, was clearly not the same rider as 2010, but even so I just look at him and think why should I believe you're clean, you weren't previously and you won't acknowledge what you did so why should I believe?

Pross

itisaboutthebike wrote:

All everyone wants is for Yatesy to tell the truth..........which non of us thinks(well knows) he's doing at the mo

And therein lies the problem - what if (to suspend reality) Yates or any other rider is telling the truth? Internet people who have drawn their own conclusions and won't be happy until the rider admits guilt even if they weren't guilty.