Scary

pauldavid

I am fairly new to this cycling lark and particularly bad at climbing.

So yesterday planned a 40 mile route with a good amount of climbing in the hope that punishing myself up hills will make me slightly better at climbing at some point in the future.

Now the climb was painful,enjoyable,humiliating in equal measure but I made it and felt good about that at least.

Then came the scary bit, descending I managed to see 37mph on my Bryton and I know that most of you will have gone a lot quicker than that but it was the first time I have ever gone anything like that fast on a cycle and it would have gone a little quicker I think if I hadn't been scrubbing some speed off with the brakes.

I can honestly say that this is the most vulnerable I have ever felt in my life and was scared to bloody death, having said that I think I'm gonna do it again next Sunday

It almost made the pain worthwhile.

Am I the only one who feels this vulnerable or should I just MTFU

(incidentally I am an ex motorcyclist and an indicated 160mph on my GSXR didn't feel that scary!)

slowondefy2

I much prefer going up the hills than down for this very reason, especially when the roads are anything but bone dry! If I know the road is smooth, with a reasonable run-out and no side road junctions I feel a bit braver, but there's no harm with a bit of caution - just don't grab a handful of front brake in panic.

Number 64 of the rules is also relevant to descending:

The Rules wrote:

Rule #64 // Cornering confidence increases with time and experience.
This pattern continues until it falls sharply and suddenly.

y33stu

I must admit I used to be somewhat scared of steep, fast downhills. However the more you do it, the more confidence you have. Either than or you just become complacent! I'm happy going downhill up to 40 mph - ish. There is one hill near me, a 12% gradient to start with and a continued downhill for 2km which when I go down, I do brake, as the road surface isn't the best - Dont think I'll ever not brake on that one.

pauldavid

Glad to know it's not just me.

Funny how things spring into your mind in certain circumstances.

For me the two most prominent thoughts were;

I wonder if that carbon fork is meant to vibrate/flex that much at speed on a rough surfaced road, and

Only wearing lycra means this is gonna be a right bloody mess if it goes wrong :shock:

thecrofter

pauldavid wrote:

(incidentally I am an ex motorcyclist and an indicated 160mph on my GSXR didn't feel that scary!)

but, when you were a learner stepping off your 125 on to a GSXR and doing 160 would have been scary....

You'll get used to it, until Rule 64 kicks in.

slowondefy2

It's worth looking up about 'speed wobble' so you're a bit prepared if it hits! Happens on motorbikes too so you've probably heard of it as 'tank slapper'...

chrisaonabike

pauldavid wrote:

I am fairly new to this cycling lark...

Yes, me too.

Then came the scary bit, descending I managed to see 37mph

:shock:

Am I the only one who feels this vulnerable

No! I've hit 30mph a couple of times now, on a straight downhill (Sawyers Hill in Richmond Park), and that wasn't too bad.

However, the same park also has a long curved hill, and I'm totally chicken. I used to freewheel down it when I was a kid, but I guess my imagination is a lot better now, and the consequences of losing it on the tight bit of the bend would be grim. So I'm building up speed a tiny bit at a time - but mostly just wearing out the brake pads which is a bit galling having put all the effort in to climb up it in the first place.

Road tyres also seem awfully skinny after the relatively fat ones I used to ride on.

saprkzz

Doing speeds downhill when it takes you from your comfort zone is scary and you become well aware of whats in front of you.

I always think about "what if" as I am descending, I did my top speed and bragged to my wife and the realisation of if i came off, i cant imagine you would survive.

I feel very comfortable up to 40-45 mph, but anything can go wrong, wildlife, speed wobble, blow out etc etc.
Over 45 mph, and it just seems fast.

You will get more confident, but youneed to be aware of the road conditions and surroundings.

mallorcajeff

bit by bit it gets easier but i only go quick if i know the road. this weekend i was coming down one of the mountains here in mallorca its nearly an 6 mile descent i normally come down around 40-45 and brake hard for the corners. this weekend was coming down with a club (i was just on the back of them) and jesus they went past me like i was sitting still. i went quicker than i normally would and that got scary and quickly found myself out the comfort zone so slowed down before something happend. good job too as on the next bends i could see about ten motorbikes all big qucik stuff overtaking on the way down on blind bends so i kept away from that saw fatal last year in the same circumstances. I dont like descending in a big group too many levels of mix talent. But just dont get over confident and cocky and you will be fine. read the road ahead and always expect the unexpected and as said above dont grab a handfull of front brake if you meet a coach on a bend like i did last summer, locked up sideways and managed to keep it upright no idea how, purely my own fault not looking far enough ahead. gladly a lesson learnt, coach driver called me all sorts under the sun which was fair enough, i free wheeled away down the rest of the mountain, sheepishly and emptied my bib shorts.

farrina

pauldavid wrote:

I can honestly say that this is the most vulnerable I have ever felt in my life and was scared to bloody death, having said that I think I'm gonna do it again next Sunday

First rule, irrespective of whatever anyone else is doing, never ever go faster than you feel comfortable ...

As a motor cyclist you will no doubt already be aware of the most common hazards, but I am always cautious on roads on which I am unfamiliar (thinking potholes, concealed junctions etc). At least you should know what's what next week

Apart from that have fun ( only the odd motorist misjudging your speed to watch)

Regards

Alan

Ps the motorists seem to become particularly upset when you overtake them on narrow winding descents.

JasonBrooke

I had a moment last time out. Going down a half mile 10% hill was on the big ring and kept pedaling as its quite straight. Got to the bottom and was turning a steady left and due to flooding last week there was a gravel residue on the road so I hit it mid lean. I felt the whole bike slide to the right and then grip, I was still pedaling so there was nothing I could do about it, if it had gone.

Checked my GPS when I got home and I was doing 32mph when it happened. As it was dark at the time I'd not seen a thing, but I did another lap and took it very steady.

Bib shorts needed a good wash though

farrina

JasonBrooke wrote:

I had a moment last time out. Bib shorts needed a good wash though

Yes brown trouser (sorry shorts) moments are pretty common. For the ultimate pleasure it is highly recommended to find a nice fast sweeping wet descent where the road bends tighter than expected and the choice arises whether to run wide or lean a bit harder and risk the back end going ....

Seen pretty much all - bods hitting sheep (they always wait until you are upon them before running out), hitting closed gates and even a head on between bike and car (fortunately car saw cyclist coming and was almost stationary when bike hit) but still left forks at 90 degrees to what they should have been.

Be careful out there even the pro's get it wrong ... RIP Fabio Casartelli

Regards

Alan

Ps don't forget the problem with shadows when descending under trees - is it a pothole or a shadow ? Not something you want to find out at high speed.

unixnerd

I remember the first time I came down Cairngorm mountain, I hit a patch of frost heave damage going over 40mph and scared the pants off myself. Almost had cramp in my fingers trying to brake for three miles. It gets a lot better with time and experience.

Cleat Eastwood

haha I think its more common than people let on. The fastest i've been this year is 48mph, and that was totally by accident - on a hill where I could see all the way down - when I checked the garmin afterwards I thought 'what a tit' - not something I want to practice at getting better at.

doublem_1

Have you ever done scary/dangerous stuff before in your life? Gotten the adrenaline rushing through your veins? Glad you took risk and would gladly do it again for the thrill?

alihisgreat

take it easy this time of year on the descents as the roads are slippery.. had someone fall off on a sharp corner after a fast descent on the club run at the weekend :roll:


Going fast is fine though.. unless the road surface is terrible or its wet. I've got up to the high 40s before.. its a good rush!

bompington

Rule 64 is precisely correct - I've just gone through the"reset" phase after a slide on a wet roundabout, it's funny how you feel unsteady on every bend, especially wet ones, but never really notice the confidence coming back until one day you just realise you're blasé again. And then inevitably the wheel of life comes round once more...

pauldavid

And there was me thinking it was fast and scared to death :oops: , when you've pretty much all been going faster :shock:

Looks like my bravery whilst descending needs work in much the same way I need to practice climbing. :roll:

Oh well, back out tomorrow after work , practice makes perfect

pearceygy

Alright everyone, this is my first post I'm nearly 38 and I'm just starting out biking I've been going out for about 6 weeks, the first time I did 10 miles it nearly killed me and I was wondering if this was for me well I stuck at It and i'm loving it now doing about 25 miles on a run which takes me about an hour and half.
Regarding speed there's a bit of an hill on my route and I can get my bike up to about 37/38 mph but the bikes starts shaking this is where I crap myself and ease of, is this normal ? and can anyone advise me how I should be braking front or back ? both together?
cheers,

Tony.

unixnerd

If it's shaking it may be due to low tyre pressure. Get a cheap track pump and go for around 100psi. A vibration could also be due to a buckled wheel of course.

Wacky Racer

pearceygy wrote:

Alright everyone, this is my first post I'm nearly 38 and I'm just starting out biking I've been going out for about 6 weeks, the first time I did 10 miles it nearly killed me and I was wondering if this was for me well I stuck at It and i'm loving it now doing about 25 miles on a run which takes me about an hour and half.
Regarding speed there's a bit of an hill on my route and I can get my bike up to about 37/38 mph but the bikes starts shaking this is where I crap myself and ease of, is this normal ? and can anyone advise me how I should be braking front or back ? both together?
cheers,

Tony.

When braking, as a rule of thumb, apply 75% to the front and 25% to the rear. Remember that when you start braking your weight shifts forward. Therefore most of your control under braking comes from the front, hard braking on the front will shift your weight forwards, ease off and you gradually shift weight back towards the rear wheel. It's best to practice if you are new to the bike, so you don't mess it up in an emergency.

greentea

pearceygy wrote:

Alright everyone, this is my first post I'm nearly 38 and I'm just starting out biking I've been going out for about 6 weeks, the first time I did 10 miles it nearly killed me and I was wondering if this was for me well I stuck at It and i'm loving it now doing about 25 miles on a run which takes me about an hour and half.
Regarding speed there's a bit of an hill on my route and I can get my bike up to about 37/38 mph but the bikes starts shaking this is where I crap myself and ease of, is this normal ? and can anyone advise me how I should be braking front or back ? both together?
cheers,

Tony.

It should always be both together and 50-50 not 75-25 as someone else has suggested. If you apply too much front brake you run the risk of the wheel sliding out from underneath you. If this happens on the front there is absolutely no way back. You will fall and probably break something.

If you apply too much pressure to the back brake you run the risk of locking up and the tyre losing traction. This isnt good either, but compared to losing the front its 50% less likely to result in a crash as you can still control a rear-wheel slide. You cant control a front wheel slide if it gives way.

When you learn to ride a motorbike the front brake is more powerful than the back so its easy to lock up and lose the front wheel, so they teach you to apply both brakes together. To highlight this the instructor went along at 30mph on a flat road and placed a crash-test dummy on a make-shift zebra-crossing. He hit the marker with just the front brake on and went through the dummy, stopping about 5ft beyond the crossing. He then did it again with just the back brake applied, hit the same marker and then then through the dummy and finally stopped about 15ft beyond the crossing.
He then did it again, applied both brake 50-50, hit the marker, and stopped 5ft in front of the dummy. Just this little demonstration showed us all the importance of applying brakes 50-50.

The same applies to a road bike. Its always 50-50 as your weight moves forward as you stop so you must counter this with the same amount of brake power on the rear as the front. if you applied 75-25 toward the front then your body weight moving forward could be enough to lose traction on the front tyre resulting in a crash.

The other benefit of applying 50-50 is that if you feel you need to apply more pressure to the front or back brake you can do so without upsetting the balance of the bike so much. If you apply 75-25 to the front then feel you need more stopping power and accidently apply more to the front you run the risk of again losing the front wheel. If you apply more back brake in a 75-25 situation, you then run the risk of unbalancing the whole bike as you weight shifts forwards then suddenly shifts back causing a yo-yo effect.

So, remember, its always 50-50.

Secondly, NEVER grab the brakes unless its an emergency, in which case grab them as hard as possible and try to remain in a straight line on the bike.
Brake pressure, especially going downhill should always be applied gradually, at the same time. So pull the levers in so they start to bite, then pull them in firmly to apply more braking pressure. If you 'grab' the brakes and they bite instantly, again, you run a high risk of upsetting the bike and losing traction. Braking should always be about keeping the bike stable, its not about stopping on a sixpence. Its about scrubbing off speed in order to take the next corner so all braking should be ideally done before you turn into the corner.

So, 50-50. Brake applied gradually, then firmly. Scrub speed off before the corner, release brakes, then power through the corner, covering the brake levers in case of an emergency.

Wacky Racer

Sorry Greentea, I could not disagree more with you. All beginners tend to, or are advised to use 50/50 for braking, but it is a scientifically proven fact that more effective braking is achieved by using more front than rear, and 75/25 is a decent rule of thumb. 50/50 will not stop you as quickly as using more front than rear, anyone who has either plenty of experience, or someone who understands the science involved will tell you this. 50/50 is only conventional because it's the easier option until you are experienced enough to "feel" the best option.

In truth, braking is intuitive and relies on feel, something you can only achieve from experience. I am 51 years old and have been riding motorbikes since I was 16. I can stand a motorbike on its end and have years of track and road experience.

Sorry to disagree, but do some research and you will find I am correct.

jimmies

actually in an emergency to stop the quickest you want to be applying 100/100 to both from and rear at the moment you actually stop.....but you get to 100% in an every increasing curve.

You want to be applying as much to each wheel as the conditions allow without braking traction. Start with a smaller amount of pressure to settle the bike....then increase the pressure as hard as the tyre will allow (this is feel) and continue to increase - as you stop you will be at 100/100

On a motorbike it is the same, the reason why it good to use some rear brake just before you pile on the front is to stop the bike pitching forward too sharply in an emergency situation, which would be difficult for most to control. I can do endo's/rolling stoppies till the cows come home......but in an emergency stop I stop much quicker and in more control when I use the rear brake and both wheels are on the tarmac

greentea

Wacky Racer wrote:

Sorry Greentea, I could not disagree more with you. All beginners tend to, or are advised to use 50/50 for braking, but it is a scientifically proven fact that more effective braking is achieved by using more front than rear, and 75/25 is a decent rule of thumb. 50/50 will not stop you as quickly as using more front than rear, anyone who has either plenty of experience, or someone who understands the science involved will tell you this. 50/50 is only conventional because it's the easier option until you are experienced enough to "feel" the best option.

In truth, braking is intuitive and relies on feel, something you can only achieve from experience. I am 51 years old and have been riding motorbikes since I was 16. I can stand a motorbike on its end and have years of track and road experience.

Sorry to disagree, but do some research and you will find I am correct.

I dont need to do research, read my post you ignorant c*nt and stop trying to take the moral high ground. Ive been riding bikes for 25 years, ive raced at Brands Hatch, Silverstone and more race tracks than i care to mention. I can stand a motorbike on its end as well, i can also wheelie for 200yrds, ive done over 190mph on a track...so what?

If you read the OP he doesnt have confidence braking, which is why i said do 50/50, as 75/25 might be the optimal braking for you and me but this guy doesnt have our experience. So by all means, tell the newbie to go for 75/25 when he hits his first 40mph descent but dont be surprised when he loses the front and breaks his collarbone.

Next time you throw your old mans two-pence worth in, try reading the bloody OP properly before making out youre Valentino Rossi. Tw@t.

BlakeysFC

Been riding for 11 weeks now regularly.

For about 6 weeks I was pretty fearless going down hills, going pretty much flat-out.

Then when I did the Cake Quest Sportive a few weeks ago I came down a hill in the wet going too fast and had to lock up the brakes sharpish before having to action-movie-style leap off the bike whilst still moving at the bottom, while still managing to stay on my feet.

Also had a similar thing happen down an unfamiliar hill, there was gravel all over the road at the bottom and I managed to again stay on my feet otherwise it could've been nasty.

After these near misses I'm probably a bit too sensible on the down-hills and go very slowly down steep inclines in particular. Even a hill I go down regularly I know slow down for significantly more than I used to.

You definitely learn by your mistakes!

slowondefy2

greentea wrote:

... you ignorant c*nt ... Tw@t.

Well, that degenerated quickly

Guanajuato

I know where the OP is coming from. Round here, there's a hell of a lot of very steep hills (~150m in 1km), where if you don't drag brakes you're up to 30mph+ in a couple of bike lengths. The road surfaces are terrible - all potholed, covered in bits of tarmac that should be in the potholes and invariably damp under trees, so you can't brake hard for corners or lean in very much, otherwise you end up on the opposite side of the road if you're lucky. These types of roads I'll keep my speed well down and make sure I've slowed right down in a straight line before a bend. Particularly as its quite likely some tosspot is coming up the hill in a car on the wrong side. I see some strava tracks with people doing insane speeds.

The A6 descent from Shap to Kendal is another story. 400m drop in 10km with one section dropping ~200m in 3km, followed by a bit of a climb, then gentle downhill with a final 100m drop in 3km without a straight bit in sight. Sight lines are generally good, curves are much more gentle, the road is wide and the surface is good in most parts. Without pedalling I tend to reach about 40mph and feel reasonably confident. It feels great and well worth the effort in the opposite direction. I wouldn't be so happy on other lakeland passes as the roads are narrower and also much busier. The tour went the girly way up Shap, from the north.

As someone has already said, stick with what your comfortable with and keep at it - your confidence will grow and you'll get quicker. But human nature should stop you being a complete idiot!

Think someone got out of bed the wrong side this morning. :roll: Actually, looking at the timing of the post, failed to pull last night.

TakeTurns

The consequences are extremely severe of having an accident at high speed. Earlier in the year I had an accident whilst doing just under 30mph. Broken collar bone, road burns and wrecked carbon bike.

From the accident I've learnt a whole lot more about decending and technique. I hit 42mph recently on a decent.

Wacky Racer

greentea wrote:

Wacky Racer wrote:

Sorry Greentea, I could not disagree more with you. All beginners tend to, or are advised to use 50/50 for braking, but it is a scientifically proven fact that more effective braking is achieved by using more front than rear, and 75/25 is a decent rule of thumb. 50/50 will not stop you as quickly as using more front than rear, anyone who has either plenty of experience, or someone who understands the science involved will tell you this. 50/50 is only conventional because it's the easier option until you are experienced enough to "feel" the best option.

In truth, braking is intuitive and relies on feel, something you can only achieve from experience. I am 51 years old and have been riding motorbikes since I was 16. I can stand a motorbike on its end and have years of track and road experience.

Sorry to disagree, but do some research and you will find I am correct.

I dont need to do research, read my post you ignorant c*nt and stop trying to take the moral high ground. Ive been riding bikes for 25 years, ive raced at Brands Hatch, Silverstone and more race tracks than i care to mention. I can stand a motorbike on its end as well, i can also wheelie for 200yrds, ive done over 190mph on a track...so what?

If you read the OP he doesnt have confidence braking, which is why i said do 50/50, as 75/25 might be the optimal braking for you and me but this guy doesnt have our experience. So by all means, tell the newbie to go for 75/25 when he hits his first 40mph descent but dont be surprised when he loses the front and breaks his collarbone.

Next time you throw your old mans two-pence worth in, try reading the bloody OP properly before making out youre Valentino Rossi. Tw@t.

I'm not going to stoop to your level. I did read your post - your opening line was "It should always be both together and 50-50 not 75-25 as someone else has suggested"

I also read the post, questioning whether he should use front, rear, or both, and I gave a sensible rule of thumb, which is accurate, and proven.

Now, whatever way I read your opening line, it comes out the same. Perhaps you should have re-read your own post before coming back with nothing more than ignorance, bluster and expletives?

Crawlinguphills

slowondefy2 wrote:

greentea wrote:

... you ignorant c*nt ... Tw@t.

Well, that degenerated quickly

'Boy, that escalated quickly... I mean, that really got out of hand fast.'

Name the movie. 5 points and a free 'punch to the ovarys'