Motorway through the Peak District

sfichele

Anyone else seen the news that they are considering a motorway through the North part of the Peak District?

Anger over Peak District Motorway Plans

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?id=31308

Pross

It says local authorities are pressing for it. In reality, even if it got support from national government it would probably take 15 years to actually get around to anyone actually building it. Add in the amount of Council and General elections that will take place over that time and there will be plenty of opportunity for back tracking, especially if there is public anger at the proposal, and I doubt you will see this in your lifetime. It appears to have been mooted and shelved several times before. There is also no funding for this type of project at the moment. Bear in mind there have been plans to build a second M4 around Newport for at least 20 years (I think the current position is the plans have been ditched). Local Councils don't make decisions on major motorway routes so it looks to be just talk at the moment.

alanp23

As a nearby inhabitant, I would love that motorway to be built. It looks like it would go over the Woodhead or nearby.

Advantages.

1. I could get to Manchester quicker by car.
2. I could go over the Woodhead pass on my bike without fear of being hit by an HGV
3. The traffic jams over that stretch to the M67 would disappear.

Disadvantage.

1. A big motorway across the Penines. But given the fact that the M62 runs across it happily and I think adds to the vista, I am sure that this one could too.

The main question for me would be how it got to the Woodhead. J36 or J37 of M1. That will annoy more people.

sfichele

Yeah, its definitely been banding around before, in fact the original motorway was meant to go there.
Pathetic Motorways

What gets me is the current government want to greatly weaken planning consent in favour of any economic progress. You could easily argue over any environmental constraints and bulldoze your way through anything once money is the sole objective.

I'm not actually sure how the motorway would link. After all the bottle neck is actually glossop and mottram, so you need to either demolish those or massively bypass them.

As for the view: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=53.620412,-2.062426&spn=0.036094,0.087547&t=m&z=14&layer=c&cbll=53.620391,-2.078802&cbp=12,0,,0,0&photoid=po-61124897

CiB

Good idea. As a regular user of the M1 to get from down Sarf to Gtr Manchester (NE side) it would save that ridiculous business of going all the way up to the M62 to come all the way down to the top of Manchester. Bring it on.

ilm_zero7

more bloody motorways when the future is a decent rail infrastructure. i have just come back from 2 days in Holland - it makes our rail network look like a mickey mouse antique

CiB

ILM Zero7 wrote:

more bloody motorways when the future is a decent rail infrastructure. i have just come back from 2 days in Holland - it makes our rail network look like a mickey mouse antique

And when we try to build a decent rail link - HS2 anyone? - the whole country goes bonkers about it. I was surveyed last week down some remote country lane that crosses the intended line of it.

tiredofwhiners

ILM Zero7 wrote:

more bloody motorways when the future is a decent rail infrastructure. i have just come back from 2 days in Holland - it makes our rail network look like a mickey mouse antique

The maximum gradient for a railway in the uk is 1:11.

You can forget getting a new railway to go over to top of the Pennines as there isn't the passenger demand and the route would have to wind all around the area to keep the gradient down to a sensible number. The best you'd get would be a new carriage on an existing train but only if they could seriously up the traction.

mr_goo

Will be nice and quiet at the Dog and Partridge if this gets built.

Tom Butcher

I can see the argument for it but is nothing sacred ? It's the Peak District - it isn't just the loss of the land the noise from a motorway is very very intrusive.

The Little Onion

It is also a national park, don't forget. this aint gonna happen

With regards railways - the transpennine railways have been waiting since the 50s for electrification. Should be here by 2017, which should improve reliability and speed (electric trains are lighter than diesels, so they can cope with the hills better).

rolf_f

tiredofwhiners wrote:

ILM Zero7 wrote:

more bloody motorways when the future is a decent rail infrastructure. i have just come back from 2 days in Holland - it makes our rail network look like a mickey mouse antique

The maximum gradient for a railway in the uk is 1:11.

You can forget getting a new railway to go over to top of the Pennines as there isn't the passenger demand and the route would have to wind all around the area to keep the gradient down to a sensible number. The best you'd get would be a new carriage on an existing train but only if they could seriously up the traction.

Yep - totally hopeless. If only there was an unused tunnel through the Pennines already there and an almost completely intact trackbed built to mainline standards linking Manchester and Sheffield then it would be so simple........

As for the motorway - terrible idea. Just generates more traffic. Won't happen anyway. Besides - a bit impolite surely? The peaks is a nice place and needs to stay nice. If you want to get from one side to the other on a motorway, you can go round. If you want lots of motorways about, move to where they already are - it's a lot easier


PS 1 in 11?! Are you sure about that?

The_Special_One

Build a new junction on the M1 somewhere between J36 and 37 which links to a 3 laned tunnel in each direction under the Peak District coming out at the start of the M67.

Problem solved.

dodgy

All that happens when you build new roads is that the traffic naturally expands to fill the space. Proven time and again in this country.

OffTheBackAdam

More traffic is indicative of economic growth.

tiredofwhiners

The_Special_One wrote:

Build a new junction on the M1 somewhere between J36 and 37 which links to a 3 laned tunnel in each direction under the Peak District coming out at the start of the M67.

Problem solved.

Why spend tens of billions on a tunnel to go between Manchester and Sheffield ? Its only a few miles more to use the M62 or to come off earlier and use the A50.

A sense of perspective goes a long way and there is zero demand for that level of investment. The money would be better spent on another Channel Tunnel.

Ginjafro

I used to live south of Manchester over 20 years ago. Traveling by car from Macclesfield, Alderley Edge, or Wilmslow area to Manchester Piccadilly used to take about half an hour. Since then various "upgraded" roads, by-passes and motorways have multiplied in the region. Recent visits to Manchester during the last 4 years or so have, in my experience, shown a massive increase in traffic and congestion and no quicker in the time to get anywhere, often slower. Worse still, was such commutes today, are far more stressful than years ago. Returning back to the South West is always such a relief. The Motorway stops at Exeter and we have to make do with the A30 and A38 to get to most places and you know what? The traffic, congestion, delays and associated stress are minor in comparison.

Experience tells me this: build more roads - attract more traffic - increased journey time - more noise, more pollution and more stress. I certainly wouldn't like to cycle to Manchester on a regular basis.

The_Special_One

tiredofwhiners wrote:

The_Special_One wrote:

Build a new junction on the M1 somewhere between J36 and 37 which links to a 3 laned tunnel in each direction under the Peak District coming out at the start of the M67.

Problem solved.

Why spend tens of billions on a tunnel to go between Manchester and Sheffield ? Its only a few miles more to use the M62 or to come off earlier and use the A50.

A sense of perspective goes a long way and there is zero demand for that level of investment. The money would be better spent on another Channel Tunnel.

I wasn't been serious with my post.

If it's only a ' few miles ' more to use the M62, then why do a hell of a lot of HGV drivers take the slow slog across the Woodhead.

Clearly it isn't just a few miles more to use the M62. If you're coming from the Leeds / West Yorkshire area then the M62 is a sensible route to take if heading over the Pennines.

Anything from the Barnsley area and south going via the M62 is a bit of a detour. There is a need for a better road link over the Pennines between South Yorkshire and the Manchester area, but I wouldn't want to see a new motorway cut through the Peak District and in all honesty it would never get built anyway. Maybe the Woodhead could be upgraded to a duel carriageway.

When back up north in Sheffield I prefer the Woodhead way more than useing the A57 Sanke Pass, it's just a right PITA if you get stuck behind a couple of HGV's.

sfichele

Thought I'd cycle out to the area today, as a live close by

Photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/88183471@N05/8064079657/in/photostream

Video:
http://youtu.be/HlNvXhVgUE0

The image shows the A628 in red. It's hard to see the cars and trucks on it unless you zoom in, which is why I've highlighted it. In real life it's quite easy to see the road, and if it was a motorway it would savage that landscape like axe wound through ya head. The smaller images are from the Strines a few miles south, but are indicative of the area around here. To the south of the motorway, further up the road, you have some beautiful moor land that backs on to the Derwent reservoir (famous for the Dam Busters). To the north and right in the picture you have Holme moss.

There are very few places left in England that are truly remote and unspoilt, do we really need a motorway through it so that a Tesco lorry can carry yet more crap to another depot 15 minutes faster than taking the M62.

thegibdog

Well, it'd make Snake Pass a better place to cycle...

CYCLESPORT1

This is old news, it got the go-ahead from the powers that be some years ago.
I used to use the A628 as a training circuit years ago, also you could ride three Club 10s a week on it then, it was also a popular 10 mile Road Race Circuit.
Bring it on

beverick

tiredofwhiners wrote:

ILM Zero7 wrote:

more bloody motorways when the future is a decent rail infrastructure. i have just come back from 2 days in Holland - it makes our rail network look like a mickey mouse antique

The maximum gradient for a railway in the uk is 1:11.

You can forget getting a new railway to go over to top of the Pennines as there isn't the passenger demand and the route would have to wind all around the area to keep the gradient down to a sensible number. The best you'd get would be a new carriage on an existing train but only if they could seriously up the traction.

Four points:

1) There's been talk of upgrading the Woodhead road for as long as I can remember (and that goes back to the late 1960's when we used to use part of the route to get from Leeds to my uncle's in Liverpool). I actually think, if asked, by far and away the majority of people in South and West Yorkshire, Derbyshire and Greater Manchester would argue over which was the best route for such a road rather than whether or not it should be built.

2) I used the railways in Holland for four years (ok, only the local services from Schiphol to places around Amsterdam but the experience is pretty much the same as in the UK. Old, overcrowded and usually late but with the added issue that most people ignore the no-smoking rules (the mobile did work in the tunnels from the airport though!). Also, and ironically, the electric locomotives from the Woodhead line were sold to the Netherlands Railways in the 1980's when the line closed. I have a photo somewhere of one pulling frieght near Bijlmer from about 2005.

3) I assume that the comment about the maximum gradient for a railway in the UK is 1:11 comes from the suggestion that there should be a railway along that route. If it does it's misplaced as the former Woodhead line used to run exactly through the valley where the road is proposed (between Penistone and Hadfield). One of the road suggestions placed a few years ago was to use the former railway tunnels west of Penistone as part of the route.

4) There have been a number of suggestions to reopen the railway line all of which have failed as the passenger numbers just don't add up. I know the demographics have changed between Manchester and Sheffield but the line was only really used for freight (coal and steel) from the 1930's.

Being purely selfish, it would rather ruin one of my Sunday runs from Holmfirth to Glossop and back via Home Moss.

Bob

symo

Trains = Future
Cars = Past.

Pathetic. Really Pathetic that they intend to build this. More roads equal more congestion. More rail is what we need to build, screw the Nimby's it's bad enough we don't have enough energy sources because some Tw@t wants to preserve his 14th century house price.

Pross

symo wrote:

Trains = Future
Cars = Past.

If only it were that simple. Great concept if you are travelling from and to a major urban area but how do people get from rural villages to the station and back? Are you proposing stations every few miles? If so, how long will journeys take? 20% of journeys less than 1 mile, 60% of journeys of 1 - 2 miles and 80% of journeys between 2 - 5 miles are made by car. Improved rail facilities and journey times will encourage medium or longer journeys but 69% of all trips are less than 5 miles so the car is here to stay whether we like it or not. Convenience is key.

CiB

For those short journeys we need some miracle invention that allows people to propel themselves around on lightweight vehicles that require no external power, and can gobble up amazing distances without much effort. If only...