Struggling with turns.

JayKay3000

Is it a normal phenomenon to hit a speed wall in turns.

I noticed that most turns I take the same speed as I did when I first started mountain biking about 4 months ago. I get to a speed I feel safe with and can't seem to go faster.

Today there was a turn that has been bugging me, it's tight and involves a small rock drop off. Today I thought I'd try and do it faster than normal and promptly lost the front wheel and had had to react quickly to stop myself crashing into the trail surface. I was not on the front wheel as much as I should have been and this probably caused the crash. I still felt that I could not make the turn faster.

Is this a case, like with a car it has it's optimum speed and nothing you do will make it go faster around said turn except changing things on the car or buying a different one.

I run the pressures below the recommended due to the 80mm suss and hardtail and ride in a lot of mud, hardpack and rocks.

When the turns open up the bike feels safe and 'alive' whereas in the tight ones it feels sort of dead and without feel.

The bike is a specialized carve 29er.

It's apt that I talk about cars because I sometimes like to drive lively within the speed limit and find the car has an optimum speed in tight turns, but in longer ones you can open it up. I understand the physics of this though yet it's funny that I have the same problem on the bike. Of course if I try and go faster than I know the car can do in tight turns it understeers.

One final thought too that I was following some random in spandex (I pretended the butt outline was a sexy female) on a full susser today on a 26er. He got away from me in the tight turns and for a bit I'd given up trying to catch up, but found that over the obstacles and longer turns I made up loads of ground to the point where I was getting held up by him (and the view was getting unpleasant) so perhaps this is just some inherent problem with the 29er or a lack of confidence on my part.

Perhaps I need to ask my m8s if I can lead and they can point out where I'm going wrong, but for now you guys might have advice.

supersonic

There are limits of grip and traction, depending on many factors. A good rider will find those limits, but you'll often take it too far, as you did!

The bike may be a bit more stable, or slower handling in the tighter turns than others - an often found complaint about 29ers.

estampida

keep pedals level

get your braking done before the corner

lean in & fight the compression.... it will end

keep an eye on "the line" its should look more worn than the non lines......

and walk a section and have a good look at what you are going over, and session it for a little while

it could just be your blocking an need to let the corner pass and come back to it once you have got it sorted out

and get in the zone and keep in the zone... don't start thinking about supper or summit.........

paul.skibum

estampida wrote:

keep pedals level

get your braking done before the corner

lean in & fight the compression.... it will end

keep an eye on "the line" its should look more worn than the non lines......

and walk a section and have a good look at what you are going over, and session it for a little while

it could just be your blocking an need to let the corner pass and come back to it once you have got it sorted out

and get in the zone and keep in the zone... don't start thinking about supper or summit.........

Wrong.

Drop the outside pedal and weight it - if you keep the pedals level (unless its a big bermed corner) you will inevitably have the weight int he wrong place in one turn or the other. Even in bermed corners I find with level pedals I tend to kick out the back tyre as I weight my back foot more than my front so when it is on the inside of the turns the back wheel tends to step out a little (I dont mind its fun and tightens the line but if I anticipate it and change my position I can corner cleaner).

lean the bike, elbows out and up on the outside of the turn, turn your body where you want to go (point a light in your belly button where you want to go), dont fight the compression, you dont want to absorb (collapse) toward the bike in the turn as this absorbs the forces and effectively deweights the tyre losing you grip.

Check out this shot - http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/7770860/ weight on his right leg, body steered in the direction he's turning , knee, hips, shoulders pointing to the exit, weight over the front of the bike (head over the stem), knees and elbows out.


As SS says there is obviously a limit of traction at some point as with anything trying to turn a corner but in flat land corners body positioning and bike attitude can make a lot of changes - check out Fabien Barrels tips videos on Pinkbike.

supersonic

I actually prefer a level pedal, or to alter it depending on the terrain - on rocky turns the outside pedal often strikes the ground.

JayKay3000

Thanks for the tips.

I was touch worried I'd over-detailed the post, but I'll see if I can improve tomorrow.

bluechair84

+1 for paul.ski
Lean the bike beneath you so you are above it, not at the same lean angle as the bike.
Also consider moving your weight forward to increase traction on the front wheel, it's a little un-nerving but it can help.

97th choice

supersonic wrote:

I actually prefer a level pedal, or to alter it depending on the terrain - on rocky turns the outside pedal often strikes the ground.

I guess it's all about using different techniques based on conditions, on the kind of loose, muddy surface you get in pine forests I find loading the outside pedal really helps to get the weight down through the side lugs on the tyre

paul.skibum

97th choice wrote:

supersonic wrote:

I actually prefer a level pedal, or to alter it depending on the terrain - on rocky turns the outside pedal often strikes the ground.

I guess it's all about using different techniques based on conditions, on the kind of loose, muddy surface you get in pine forests I find loading the outside pedal really helps to get the weight down through the side lugs on the tyre

I drop the outside pedal in higher speed turns which tend not to be the very rocky ones in my experience - As I was trying to say in my earlier post, I find if I am standing on level pedals my habit is to put my weight primarily on my back (right) foot with the result that on right hand turns my weight can end up inside and to the rear of the bike pushing my back wheel out so I need to make a concerted effort to get on my left leg - right turns are my nemesis both on the bike and on skis because of my balance foot being my right foot!

anj132

+1 on what Paul said.

I think I read or saw on pinkbike about imaging a lazer pointing out of your belly button and making that lazer face where you want to go, i.e. opening up your hips in the direction of where you want to go. It might have been this video (really not sure 1st one I found) http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Flow-Tonic ... -2012.html but try and look up some tutorials on PB. There is probably some on BR too.

I also find it helps to look at the exit or as far as possible to the exit of the corner.

There is also the MX stylee footdrop.

But I would also like to get better at corners... and jumps... and drops... and manuals... and track standing.... endless list

paul.skibum

jumps and drops I have the skills just not the balls!

Manuals - definitely could do some work - committing to being far enough back seems to be the issue! Track stand - meh not bothered I can do it for long enough for my purposes.

As for the drop inside foot, MX turn, its a good way of ensuring you are committed to your outside pedal for sure and the extra lean/shift in weight can create a really good hook up int he turn to whip you through the end but I'd worry about feet up flat out before adding any new skills!

Jedi

+1 paul ski

Rushmore

anj132 wrote:

+1 on what Paul said.

I think I read or saw on pinkbike about imaging a lazer pointing out of your belly button and making that lazer face where you want to go, i.e. opening up your hips in the direction of where you want to go. It might have been this video (really not sure 1st one I found) http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Flow-Tonic ... -2012.html but try and look up some tutorials on PB. There is probably some on BR too.

Crackin Vid.. Going to be employing that technique next time I go out.. so simple aswell... thanks for posting as I always struggle with right turns...

paul.skibum

Jedi wrote:

+1 paul ski

That means a lot! Glad my advice gets the Jedi seal of approval!

Jedi

riding a mtb is not as hard as people try to make out.

cooldad

Jedi wrote:

riding a mtb is not as hard as people try to make out.

What do you know? It takes unbelievable skill, superhuman strength, cat like reflexes, nerves of steel, oodles of raw talent, olympian fitness, a team of F1 class mechanics to prep your cutting edge equipment and seriously round rubbery tyres.

All of which I lack, except for the rubbery tyres.

JayKay3000

I think I posted this somewhere else here, but it fits.

Last ride on a trail I know well (I'm on a 29er following this dude on a 26er) and he left me for dead on the tight turns, but as the trail opened up I found I was stuck behind him. He left me a touch on some of the bigger drop offs as he was on a fs bike and I'm holding on with my 9er.



I find it's the same with m8s and their fs 26 bikes.

I pushed harder on one turn on my own and found the front end washing out a bit and have pushed beyond what I feel safe at before and found a slight washing out happening. I tend to ride with the pedals level, knees bent and seat out of the way.

I'll be interested to see if I'm any quicker when I swap this bike for a Trance X 29er (want nicer ride, more capability) because then I'll know if it's me or the bike. I'm told that 9ers are harder to lug round tight corners. Perhaps its just a knack I don't know.

Riding is not that hard, I agree. It's fine tuning the skill set that's hard. I certainly find it's a lot easier to play with the grip on a 26er.

Northwind

paul.skibum wrote:

lean the bike, elbows out and up on the outside of the turn, turn your body where you want to go (point a light in your belly button where you want to go)

2 really nice ways to visualise this that I heard...

1) The Darcy Turenne Tits'n'Ass School. Point with your tits- your ass will follow.
2) "It's like, pure shooting ****ing laser beams from your c**k, like."

Which one you prefer may depend on whether you want to visualise Darcy Turenne's bosoms, or a scottish man's lasercock.

gregwari

Only other bits of advice would be to look through the turn, and not over the wheel. Apart from that, book yourself on a course. I've done 2 in the last 3 years and the difference in my riding was measurably better after both. Where are you based?

The Rookie

http://www.churchofrabbit.com/darcy-turenne/

chez_m356

cooldad wrote:

Jedi wrote:

riding a mtb is not as hard as people try to make out.

What do you know? It takes unbelievable skill, superhuman strength, cat like reflexes, nerves of steel, oodles of raw talent, olympian fitness, a team of F1 class mechanics to prep your cutting edge equipment and seriously round rubbery tyres.

All of which I lack, except for the rubbery tyres.

are you referring to the bike here or yourself

cooldad

I do have a bit of a spare tyre.

chez_m356

cooldad wrote:

I do have a bit of a spare tyre.

nah, thats just your emergency energy reserve

screemin187

I found all of the above interesting and useful, being kind of aware that my turns weren't perfect as a newbie. I have tried to apply my experience as a motorbike rider to the whole thing which has really helped and pretty much what has been said here by the more experienced riders. Theres an old thing about riding motorbikes which i think helps me ride harder on my mtb and thats focus/look directly where you want to go (to a degree that lasercock thing lol) Don't look at the apex or any other object, focus on the exit and pedal like hell, as a new rider your body will settle into whats the most comfortable way of achieving this as you get faster, keep the eyes focused on the exit, relax and pedal, speed and confidence will come

felix.london

screemin187 wrote:

I have tried to apply my experience as a motorbike rider to the whole thing

Except the whole leaning with the bike part I hope