Carbon clinchers, with or without aluminium brake surface?

Paul 8v

I'm currently speccing a bike up for building over the course of several months as funds allow. I want some deep section carbon wheels on there (50mm) I'm not really sure whether to go for a full carbon rim like the Zipp wheels or with the aluminium braking surface a la Campagnolo Bullet or the Mavics.
Something in my head just doesn't sit right with the carbon braking surface but I don'tknow enough about it to make an educated decision. The other side of the coin is the additional weight of an aluminum rim on top of the carbon, is it still worth spending all that money if it's going to be a heavy rim.

Any thoughts appreciated!

ugo.santalucia

I think you are asking the right questions... My view is that aside carbon tubolars for racing, it is all bling and very little substance for the money.

jimmcdonnell

Can't add much to this, but my Mavic Cosmic Carbones are the sort of thing you mention - apparently a normal alu rim with a deep thin non-structural carbon 'fairing' on; hard to judge but I doubt the carbon adds much weight. And I think that the aero benefits have got to be infinitesimal unless you're racing down to fractions of a second or at pro peloton level. Mine came with my second-hand bike, I kept 'em just for the bling factor.

What was a real annoyance with them was their tendency to fill with water and gurgle loudly. Seemed to be a one-way process, they'd fill quickly and take weeks to dribble it out unless I stripped tyre and tube off. The water must have weighed a substantial amount too...

A friend has carbon tubs, says they're great - very light, very stiff. Zero braking in anything above a light mist, dry days only if you're interacting with traffic.

tmg

My experience with full carbon wheels was they delaminated along the braking surface, the wheels where replaced under warrenty and the manufacturer had moved to an alu braking surface instead because of the issue.

Interestingly said manufacturer has now moved back to full carbon so I guess the technology has advanced.

When using them the most noticable difference from carbon to alu surfaces was in the wet, in the dry there is no difference. And there is nothing wrong with a bit of bling on a bike!

NWLondoner

Carbon rims in the wet can be a bit hairy when it comes to breaking . On quite country lanes they are fine but in traffic they are suicide. I did a morning rush hour ride in the pouring rain ONCE with my carbon wheels. NEVER EVER again!!!

rolf_f

jimmcdonnell wrote:

Can't add much to this, but my Mavic Cosmic Carbones are the sort of thing you mention - apparently a normal alu rim with a deep thin non-structural carbon 'fairing' on; hard to judge but I doubt the carbon adds much weight.

I think it is a lot. Evans list 2011 SLs at 1740 grams the pair for £764. A pair of Neutron Ultras weights 1470 grams and can be had for less than £500. Not sure what you can get in lightweight alu clinchers for £750 but presumably you can get down to about 1400 grams. That's quite a big hit for the Cosmics - 340 grams for zero cost. Worth bearing in mind.

amaferanga

You could build <1400g clinchers for less than £250, never mind £750.

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

You could build <1400g clinchers for less than £250, never mind £750.

I could build them, you could build them, he can't build them... and certainly can't buy them for less than 250. Not many would go through the hassle of ordering cheap components from the far east and build a set of wheels free of charge...

Boutique builders do work with taiwanese rims, but they charge accordingly as the risk involved is quite high, other builders wouldn't touch a Kinlin rim with a pair of tweezers. You can ask Pete Matthews or Harry Rowlands to build you a set of Kinlin rims on Bitex hubs with laser spokes, but I feel they won't do it

amaferanga

I'm sure he could find someone to build them (you? )

Why do some people have an issue in building with Kinlin rims? Why is there greater risk with them? :?

ugo.santalucia

amaferanga wrote:

I'm sure he could find someone to build them (you? )

Why do some people have an issue in building with Kinlin rims? Why is there greater risk with them? :?

Some rims and hubs are under engineered or have a poor quality control in place, which means high rate of returns. When a rim or hub is returned, in practice you need to replace it for the customer at your expense, as it is very inconvenient to send it back to Taiwan hoping for a replacement.
A new rim/hub and the re-delivery costs (not to speak about the rebuild) typically more than offset any profit made on the wheel in the first place... hence you either charge to cover this risk in the first place, or take it on the chin.
Just to give you an idea, the Strada and Wheelsmith branded hubs cost less than 50 dollars per set when bought in bulk from Taiwan, let's say 60 once you pay import duty, but they retail at 120 pounds (Strada price, on top of my head), even if there is no middle man/distributor/importer, so three times the original price. You might think the added value is extorsion, but once you take into account the risks involved, it's actually just about right. Remember if a hub has been built, the manufacturer in the far east takes no responsibility and most faults are only discovered on the road.

Kinlin rims, in their many names... IRD, Halo, etc etc... are badly machined, mediocre finish and often need to be returned for cosmetic defects, like chipped paint or defective brakes track. They do typically last a couple of years, but then they develop cracks, just look how many Planet X model B wheels develop cracks after a few thousand miles (that's a 27 mm Kinlin rim), then compare it to the number of cracked Ambrosio Excellence (just to name one) of which I have never heard...

Mikey1976

Ive got some 50 carbon clinchers with Alu brake surface and ive noticed the front brakes are not as "grippy" as the rear.

Is this something anybody has come accross? Pads are not worn out or anything, but ive heard wheel braking surfaces only last for so long then you need to replace the wheel?

Any ideas?

Paul 8v

I suppose this then comes down to the trade off between the additional rotating weight of the deep section rim compared to the aerodynamic advantage.

The claimed/Italian weight of a bullet ultra is 1590 grams compared to the say 1400 grams wheelset you could get for similar money (Not sure of the exact figures here) At what weight point does the aero advantage of the deep section rim start to be negated by the additional rotating weight of the wheel? This has to be a question for someone more mathematically minded than me!

pilot_pete

I have a pair of 50mm carbon clinchers. They were built by Wheelsmith, recommended on here. They are Gigantex rims on Novatec Superlight hubs with Sapim CX Ray spokes. Hubs and spokes superb, rims not so good. Why? Well, from first fitting the brake pads were changed for Swisstop Yellow carbon specific. Within 6 months the front rim developed a problem. The braking surface on one side seemed to have developed 'hard' areas which chewed the brake block on that side, collecting yellow deposits on these harder areas.

The rim was sent back to Wheelsmith who claimed it was down to a pothole impact that I had told him about or my braking technique. I failed to see how it could be either, but took his offer to replace he rim at cost (to me).

6 months later and the rear rim braking surface delaminated on a hilly ride. My braking technique? I fail to see how it can be. I have braked harder and longer on alloy rims with no ill effects. If that technique (never feather, just put them on when I need to lose speed for a corner and then release them before turning in) means the rim brake track fails to maintain its integrity, then the rim is not fit for purpose. I have had a local wheel builder fix this one for me as sending wheels back and forth in the mail with no personal contact has proved not for me.

These wheels are now only going to be used on flat, dry rides. For the money I think they are a waste of time and I would always go for an alloy brake surface in future. Other than the braking though, the aero advantage is very noticeable and it was instantly easier to hold a higher speed. Aero profile with alloy brake track would be the best of both worlds. The increase in weight would not be an issue unless you are doing lots of climbing. However, it does depend how you ride....I like to pretty much go flat out everywhere! If you pootle around then there is little point in this sort of wheel.

PP

ugo.santalucia

Pilot Pete wrote:

I have a pair of 50mm carbon clinchers. They were built by Wheelsmith, recommended on here. They are Gigantex rims on Novatec Superlight hubs with Sapim CX Ray spokes. Hubs and spokes superb, rims not so good. Why? Well, from first fitting the brake pads were changed for Swisstop Yellow carbon specific. Within 6 months the front rim developed a problem. The braking surface on one side seemed to have developed 'hard' areas which chewed the brake block on that side, collecting yellow deposits on these harder areas.

The rim was sent back to Wheelsmith who claimed it was down to a pothole impact that I had told him about or my braking technique. I failed to see how it could be either, but took his offer to replace he rim at cost (to me).

6 months later and the rear rim braking surface delaminated on a hilly ride. My braking technique? I fail to see how it can be. I have braked harder and longer on alloy rims with no ill effects. If that technique (never feather, just put them on when I need to lose speed for a corner and then release them before turning in) means the rim brake track fails to maintain its integrity, then the rim is not fit for purpose. I have had a local wheel builder fix this one for me as sending wheels back and forth in the mail with no personal contact has proved not for me.

These wheels are now only going to be used on flat, dry rides. For the money I think they are a waste of time and I would always go for an alloy brake surface in future. Other than the braking though, the aero advantage is very noticeable and it was instantly easier to hold a higher speed. Aero profile with alloy brake track would be the best of both worlds. The increase in weight would not be an issue unless you are doing lots of climbing. However, it does depend how you ride....I like to pretty much go flat out everywhere! If you pootle around then there is little point in this sort of wheel.

PP

I am surprised he didn't replace your rim under warranty, he has a very good reputation for customer service and this seems to be a case of "non fit for purpose", unless it came with big warning and instructions of "DOs" and "DON'Ts"
What I have learnt about this business is that if you are not prepared to take full responsability for a product, you should not advise it...

Composite rims are like Calvin Klein clothes... they look good, but you know they are cheaply made in a sweatshop using low quality fabric... they are fashionable items meant to be used for one season... When you buy an Ambrosio Excellence, it's a bit like a suit made in Saville row, it's not that fashionable, but it's meant to last for years

pilot_pete

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I am surprised he didn't replace your rim under warranty

You are not alone. I quote "It's not worth my time"....

ugo.santalucia wrote:

this seems to be a case of "non fit for purpose", unless it came with big warning and instructions of "DOs" and "DON'Ts"

My thoughts exactly, and no, no warnings or dos and don'ts, just a quote that they were the best quality carbon rims in his experience. I see his website now has the following added;

Note: Carbon rims have been used to great success in professional & amateur racing worldwide but like any component, they are not immune to over exuberant use. If you do not have expert training in braking in the high mountains, consider performance coaching or avoid demanding roads altogether. Excessive braking can wear brake pads quickly and in extreme cases can break down tyres and inner tubes and damage rims. Always take spare brake pads of the correct type with you on your trip.

Ah, so now it is 'over exuberant use' and you need to have 'expert training in braking'. Not sure what technique constitutes 'expert braking technique', surely you let the wheels run on the down hill straights, then apply them as required before a bend. Don't drag them and don't clamp them on so hard as to lock up. Not sure what constitutes 'excessive braking' other than feathering them all the way down a mountain (which i don't do). Mine developed problems descending in the UK and the Algarve, hardly the Alps or Pyrenees, which incidentally I descended earlier this summer with stock alloy wheels with no problems whatsoever. Must be something that is beyond the average cyclist.....I assume there are others who have experienced similar issues then.....since researching I have found this is a big problem with these rims (carbon, not Gigantex specifically) and the pro peloton have the advantage of binning a wheel well before it gets to delaminate. For those of us not so lucky it would appear that we will just have to keep replacing carbon rims that prematurely wear out. IMHO I think these rims are not fit for purpose if you can't continually descend hills and brake at the bottom without risk of damaging them.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I have learnt about this business is that if you are not prepared to take full responsability for a product, you should not advise it...

Agreed.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Composite rims are like Calvin Klein clothes... they look good, but you know they are cheaply made in a sweatshop using low quality fabric... they are fashionable items meant to be used for one season... When you buy an Ambrosio Excellence, it's a bit like a suit made in Saville row, it's not that fashionable, but it's meant to last for years

I like the cut of your jib sir!

PP

pilot_pete

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I am surprised he didn't replace your rim under warranty

You are not alone. I quote "It's not worth my time"....

I was extolling the strength of these rims when I hit some huge potholes and they weren't even out of true afterwards. Because I had said this, it was used as an excuse as to why the front rim was possibly chewing up the brake pads. That is simply not possible. The rim had not delaminated, the resin had changed due to heat under braking, causing these hard spots around the brake track. I was also told my braking technique was at fault. We disagreed, so I accepted the offer to have a new rim at cost as a compromise.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

this seems to be a case of "non fit for purpose", unless it came with big warning and instructions of "DOs" and "DON'Ts"

My thoughts exactly, and no, no warnings or dos and don'ts, just a quote that they were the best quality carbon rims in his experience. I see his website now has the following added;

Note: Carbon rims have been used to great success in professional & amateur racing worldwide but like any component, they are not immune to over exuberant use. If you do not have expert training in braking in the high mountains, consider performance coaching or avoid demanding roads altogether. Excessive braking can wear brake pads quickly and in extreme cases can break down tyres and inner tubes and damage rims. Always take spare brake pads of the correct type with you on your trip.

Ah, so now it is 'over exuberant use' and you need to have 'expert training in braking'. Not sure what technique constitutes 'expert braking technique', surely you let the wheels run on the down hill straights, then apply them as required before a bend. Don't drag them and don't clamp them on so hard as to lock up. Not sure what constitutes 'excessive braking' other than feathering them all the way down a mountain (which i don't do). Mine developed problems descending in the UK and the Algarve, hardly the Alps or Pyrenees, which incidentally I descended earlier this summer with stock alloy wheels with no problems whatsoever. Must be something that is beyond the average cyclist.....I assume there are others who have experienced similar issues then.....

Since researching I have found this is a big problem with these rims (carbon, not Gigantex specifically) and the pro peloton have the advantage of binning a wheel at the first signs of wear and well before it gets to delaminate. For those of us not so lucky it would appear that we will just have to keep replacing carbon rims that prematurely wear out. IMHO I think these rims are not fit for purpose if you can't continually descend hills and brake at the bottom without risk of damaging them.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I have learnt about this business is that if you are not prepared to take full responsability for a product, you should not advise it...

Agreed.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Composite rims are like Calvin Klein clothes... they look good, but you know they are cheaply made in a sweatshop using low quality fabric... they are fashionable items meant to be used for one season... When you buy an Ambrosio Excellence, it's a bit like a suit made in Saville row, it's not that fashionable, but it's meant to last for years

I like the cut of your jib sir!

PP

ugo.santalucia

Pilot Pete wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I am surprised he didn't replace your rim under warranty

You are not alone. I quote "It's not worth my time"....

ugo.santalucia wrote:

this seems to be a case of "non fit for purpose", unless it came with big warning and instructions of "DOs" and "DON'Ts"

My thoughts exactly, and no, no warnings or dos and don'ts, just a quote that they were the best quality carbon rims in his experience. I see his website now has the following added;

Note: Carbon rims have been used to great success in professional & amateur racing worldwide but like any component, they are not immune to over exuberant use. If you do not have expert training in braking in the high mountains, consider performance coaching or avoid demanding roads altogether. Excessive braking can wear brake pads quickly and in extreme cases can break down tyres and inner tubes and damage rims. Always take spare brake pads of the correct type with you on your trip.

Ah, so now it is 'over exuberant use' and you need to have 'expert training in braking'. Not sure what technique constitutes 'expert braking technique', surely you let the wheels run on the down hill straights, then apply them as required before a bend. Don't drag them and don't clamp them on so hard as to lock up. Not sure what constitutes 'excessive braking' other than feathering them all the way down a mountain (which i don't do). Mine developed problems descending in the UK and the Algarve, hardly the Alps or Pyrenees, which incidentally I descended earlier this summer with stock alloy wheels with no problems whatsoever. Must be something that is beyond the average cyclist.....I assume there are others who have experienced similar issues then.....since researching I have found this is a big problem with these rims (carbon, not Gigantex specifically) and the pro peloton have the advantage of binning a wheel well before it gets to delaminate. For those of us not so lucky it would appear that we will just have to keep replacing carbon rims that prematurely wear out. IMHO I think these rims are not fit for purpose if you can't continually descend hills and brake at the bottom without risk of damaging them.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

What I have learnt about this business is that if you are not prepared to take full responsability for a product, you should not advise it...

Agreed.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Composite rims are like Calvin Klein clothes... they look good, but you know they are cheaply made in a sweatshop using low quality fabric... they are fashionable items meant to be used for one season... When you buy an Ambrosio Excellence, it's a bit like a suit made in Saville row, it's not that fashionable, but it's meant to last for years

I like the cut of your jib sir!

PP

Again, very surprising reply, given the almost universal endorsement.
I have kind of figured the hand builts market in the Uk follows two streams: one is that of the carbon wheels, the flashy websites and the price point made comparing with the equivalent factory built product and the other is that of the more traditional builds, almost inexistent web precence and the price point made by adding the cost of the components and labour, irrespectively of what a factory made "equivalent" retails for. They are two different business models, one is more lucrative, but suffers more from the competition and its cheeky constant sales and price reductions... the other is less lucrative but more sustainable, as it does not appear as an alternative to Mavic, but rather as a completely different product altogether.
I have the feeling if one wants to make a decent living out of making wheels only, it's almost inevitable that he has to offer some carbon wheels of some sort... people want them, it's a missed opportunity to refuse to sell them... otherwise one can take it as a side business and only do what he feels it's a good product

... I suppose...

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have the feeling if one wants to make a decent living out of making wheels only, it's almost inevitable that he has to offer some carbon wheels of some sort... people want them, it's a missed opportunity to refuse to sell them... otherwise one can take it as a side business and only do what he feels it's a good product

... I suppose...

Cheer up - in a few years time people will look at pictures of bikes with deep rim carbon wheels and fall about laughing

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have the feeling if one wants to make a decent living out of making wheels only, it's almost inevitable that he has to offer some carbon wheels of some sort... people want them, it's a missed opportunity to refuse to sell them... otherwise one can take it as a side business and only do what he feels it's a good product

... I suppose...

Cheer up - in a few years time people will look at pictures of bikes with deep rim carbon wheels and fall about laughing

Or maybe not... when I see the photos of Laurent Fignon on his Lo Pro time trial frame, I really really want it...

greasedscotsman

jimmcdonnell wrote:

What was a real annoyance with them was their tendency to fill with water and gurgle loudly. Seemed to be a one-way process, they'd fill quickly and take weeks to dribble it out unless I stripped tyre and tube off. The water must have weighed a substantial amount too...

You don't need to take the tyre off to drain the water. They have a drain hole in the side of the carbon part of the rim. If you lay the wheel flat on the ground, like this...



...making sure the drain hole is facing downwards at the lowest part of the rim, sort of where the sticker is in the photo on the right hand side. Leave for a couple of hours, the water will drain out.

rolf_f

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Cheer up - in a few years time people will look at pictures of bikes with deep rim carbon wheels and fall about laughing

Or maybe not... when I see the photos of Laurent Fignon on his Lo Pro time trial frame, I really really want it...

That's hardly following the herd now though is it!

greasedscotsman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Or maybe not... when I see the photos of Laurent Fignon on his Lo Pro time trial frame, I really really want it...

But wouldn't you need one of those special "left hand side" components? Could get expensive!

ugo.santalucia

greasedscotsman wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Or maybe not... when I see the photos of Laurent Fignon on his Lo Pro time trial frame, I really really want it...

But wouldn't you need one of those special "left hand side" components? Could get expensive!

I always wondered about that in this photo... and concluded it was a mirror image or something similar... did they ever make any left hand component? If so, I want those too, I am left handed...

greasedscotsman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I always wondered about that in this photo... and concluded it was a mirror image or something similar... did they ever make any left hand component? If so, I want those too, I am left handed...

Yeah, it's a mirrored photo, this is the correct one. He's going around the hairpin at the top of the Champs Elysees. The course was run the opposite way round for the TT in '89.

ugo.santalucia

This is more like it... 8)

Crimmey

I think the problem is the Swiss Stop brake pads. They are 'too good' as thats what people want. Usually carbon wheels come with disclaimers saying 'use the supplied brake pads...or else!' and we all know those brake pads just don't cut it compared to those yellow SwissStops - for a reason? In the wet they maybe useable without ill effect but a few people saying that braking in the dry on carbon is akin to using alu rims with the SwissStops, in my not very experienced opion ( 4 sets of C wheels over 3 years), shouldn't happen and is a trade-off that should be respected. I've also got carbon wheels with alu brake surface that say use recommended/supplied brake pads which look and feel like the bog standard ones that always come with full carbon wheels.

Im sure loads of people have used the Swiss Stops without affecting rims but I just think theres a greater chance of damaging a rim with those pads.

ugo.santalucia

Crimmey wrote:

I think the problem is the Swiss Stop brake pads. They are 'too good' as thats what people want. Usually carbon wheels come with disclaimers saying 'use the supplied brake pads...or else!' and we all know those brake pads just don't cut it compared to those yellow SwissStops - for a reason? In the wet they maybe useable without ill effect but a few people saying that braking in the dry on carbon is akin to using alu rims with the SwissStops, in my not very experienced opion ( 4 sets of C wheels over 3 years), shouldn't happen and is a trade-off that should be respected. I've also got carbon wheels with alu brake surface that say use recommended/supplied brake pads which look and feel like the bog standard ones that always come with full carbon wheels.

Im sure loads of people have used the Swiss Stops without affecting rims but I just think theres a greater chance of damaging a rim with those pads.

So it's either your life or that of the rim...

jimmcdonnell

greasedscotsman wrote:

jimmcdonnell wrote:

What was a real annoyance with them was their tendency to fill with water and gurgle loudly. Seemed to be a one-way process, they'd fill quickly and take weeks to dribble it out unless I stripped tyre and tube off. The water must have weighed a substantial amount too...

You don't need to take the tyre off to drain the water. They have a drain hole in the side of the carbon part of the rim. If you lay the wheel flat on the ground, like this...



...making sure the drain hole is facing downwards at the lowest part of the rim, sort of where the sticker is in the photo on the right hand side. Leave for a couple of hours, the water will drain out.

I'm aware of the drain hole, but I can tell you that it didn't work. Water would dribble out, sure, but apparently not all of it. Had the wheels upright, drain hole at the bottom, on their sides, swinging them round over my head trying to help it out, everything - they'd just carry on happily gurgling unless I stripped the tyre, tube and rim tape off then let them sit for a while. Then inevitably it would p!$$ down the next day and I'd be back to square one again...

Crimmey

If you can't ride within their/your capabilities then so be it, just like alot of things. It's well documented the cons of carbon brake tracks and especially clincher type yet the boundaries are getting pushed further by manufacturers and by 'normal' riders who expect the earth for their money. The shops like 'WheelSmith' are just reacting to customer demand, whoever that customer is, experienced or otherwise. For the minute advantage ( not the huge gains typically touted) are carbon clinchers really worth it?

ugo.santalucia

Crimmey wrote:

If you can't ride within their/your capabilities then so be it, just like alot of things. It's well documented the cons of carbon brake tracks and especially clincher type yet the boundaries are getting pushed further by manufacturers and by 'normal' riders who expect the earth for their money. The shops like 'WheelSmith' are just reacting to customer demand, whoever that customer is, experienced or otherwise. For the minute advantage ( not the huge gains typically touted) are carbon clinchers really worth it?

I pretty much quote everything you said... the only annoying thing is that warnings are always written in small letters well hidden or have to be found among the popular folklore, while benefits are hyped in big bold ones. One would expect a reputable builder to provide an unbiased word of advice... at the end of the day if he doesn't sell you carbon, he might convince you to part from the same cash for something more appropriate.
If then the customer believes he really needs carbon, he has been warned and everybody is happy

greasedscotsman

jimmcdonnell wrote:

I'm aware of the drain hole, but I can tell you that it didn't work. Water would dribble out, sure, but apparently not all of it. Had the wheels upright, drain hole at the bottom, on their sides, swinging them round over my head trying to help it out, everything - they'd just carry on happily gurgling unless I stripped the tyre, tube and rim tape off then let them sit for a while. Then inevitably it would p!$$ down the next day and I'd be back to square one again...

Oh well, just trying to help. Works with my Mavic Cosmic Carbone SRs, no gurgling problems for me!