Islamism gone severely hostile

pinno

So, we interfered with the middle east for years. Still doing so and it is still in a state of turmoil. I still cannot help feeling that they are prone to fundamentalism and have devolved since the years of the Khadif and the Byzantine Empire before that for example. A cultural 'devolution' if you like and pushed by the western interference into a corner and then into a frency right now. I can to a certain extent sympathise with the fact that the seeds of chaos and mayhem have been sown by us, but its how they are reacting to it that is 'interesting' for want of a much better word.

Obamas speeches recently have beggered belief, underlining the arrogance and insular attitude I thought had gone since the Chickens came home to roost (7/11):

"The greatest country in the world..." and "...the light from America will continue to shine on the rest of the world"

"...we will continue on undaunted..." etc etc

America needs the OPEC countries because of her reliance on crude oil.
So my point ? The old world versus the new world, Christain fundamentalism vs Islamic fundamentalism. Where does it lead to?
Another oil crises and a further deepening of the recession ?
GB dragged into Americas (no longer) hidden agenda, with our own souls the victim of the hostility dragged in due to our own reliance on oil and our spurious relationship ?
America funding the factions of her interests and Russia doing the same through the back door just as the USA funded the Afghanis ?
And finally the Chinese mop up the remains and we play cow-tow to them for the rest of our existences.

ddraver

Obama is saying whatever he needs top get Elected. Democrat or Republican, Daily Show or Fox News, all Americas will swoon if you tell them how good America is!

The pipelines between the Arab world and the west will always run smoothly as the people in power know that that is the way their bread is buttered (where the money comes from!)

Agree with you on the other GB, funding and China bits though...

The current unrest as a result of this film thingum is unfortunately a small minority dragging down the reputation of the vast majority. The trouble is that everyone watching has a small small part of them that goes "typical Islam" yet again, which makes the whole thing 50 times harder!

Yellow Peril

pinarello001 wrote:

So, we interfered with the middle east for years. Still doing so and it is still in a state of turmoil. I still cannot help feeling that they are prone to fundamentalism and have devolved since the years of the Khadif and the Byzantine Empire before that for example. A cultural 'devolution' if you like and pushed by the western interference into a corner and then into a frency right now. I can to a certain extent sympathise with the fact that the seeds of chaos and mayhem have been sown by us, but its how they are reacting to it that is 'interesting' for want of a much better word.

Obamas speeches recently have beggered belief, underlining the arrogance and insular attitude I thought had gone since the Chickens came home to roost (7/11):

"The greatest country in the world..." and "...the light from America will continue to shine on the rest of the world"

"...we will continue on undaunted..." etc etc

America needs the OPEC countries because of her reliance on crude oil.
So my point ? The old world versus the new world, Christain fundamentalism vs Islamic fundamentalism. Where does it lead to?
Another oil crises and a further deepening of the recession ?
GB dragged into Americas (no longer) hidden agenda, with our own souls the victim of the hostility dragged in due to our own reliance on oil and our spurious relationship ?
America funding the factions of her interests and Russia doing the same through the back door just as the USA funded the Afghanis ?
And finally the Chinese mop up the remains and we play cow-tow to them for the rest of our existences.

This must be Blair's greatest embarrassment; how he allowed himself to be Bush's bitch. It wouldn't have been so bad if Bush had been an intelligent, incisive, charismatic and possessed of good judgment but...

pinno

Don't mention that tw4t Bush.

Hic !

Ali Ali Ali

As soon as 9/11 happened Bush said ..."You are either with us or against us..." and in so doing blew the tripartite talks between Syria, Iran and Isreal that Clinton had brokered. Were those the seeds of the current atmosphere ?

DesB3rd

ME governments are in something of an awkward position; while only a small minority were involved with these violent protests a great many more would certainly resent a "London 2011 - style" media heavy government denunciation, wholehearted crack-down (a round-up) and general attempt to discourage future repetition - which would be perceived as a supine response to western sympathies. We're talking about a population to whom religious fundamentalism is new & niche but govt. narratives of western imperialism-by-other-means are mother's milk; any policy which could be taken as pro-western is going to be an uphill struggle to promote.

Hence they're unable to help themselves in either stamping out this sort of criminal behaviour (and thus our perception of them - tacitly accepting the protests & not upholding the rule of law) or in terms of their domestic popularity.

pinno

DesB3rd wrote:

Hence they're unable to help themselves in either stamping out this sort of criminal behaviour (and thus our perception of them - tacitly accepting the protests & not upholding the rule of law) or in terms of their domestic popularity.

Good point, well made.
There seems to be however, an escalation of Western mistrust and hatred. When is the point that they actually start colluding ? After all Between GB, France, Russia, the US and a few other countries, we have our fingers in many pots. With so many different interests all after the oil/resources, they could light the touchpaper.

We supported the despot Karimov in Uzbekhistan despite him boiling his subjects in oil because the British and Americans had an air base there, until Karimov switched allegiance to the Russians, for example. It is such a can of worms that we created and since have simply continued to exacerbate. The Western hypocracy from Uzbekhistan to Iran to Syria to Iraq spreads far and wide. The seed and the sowers may be bitten. There are millions and millions of muslims and all we need to do is keep pushing and one day thay will collude.

OffTheBackAdam

Remember that the Muslim world is riven with religious discord, Sunni v Shia as just one.
Their leaders need a few external bogeymen to keep the populace happy, else they'll turn upon each other.
Like all religions that pander to the grossly uneducated.

symo

Like this film, that no-one is sure who created. May have been financed by a hardline group of zealots to whip up anti western feelings.

You also have to look at the spread of wealth in these countries, in Dubai, the wealth is spread out to the indigenous population so no-one is bothered. In Iran the elite control the wealth, so your elite have a great life whilst those below (which is a young population) are angry and as a result the powers at be need to focus that rage and the US makes a great target. Imagine if some of them started looking around and going "Why does the aytolah need x million US, if he is a man of religion?"; they do not want the young to realise their countries assets lie for the apparent comfort of so very few.

Also the US does itself no favours by aligning with Isreal (who really need to get back to the 1967 border), which provides lovely images for hardline groups to show the believers. Funny that the Isreali government never thanked the Muslims who sheltered the Jewish during WWII. So US tanks smash through Palestinian farms which have stood for centuries, hardly seems fair does it.

To be honest I think the whole lot boils down to the fact that all sides have a powerful elite who maintain their position through the vilification of other religion or values. Whether part of the military-industrial complex or the religious elite, they have no interest in the population looking around and realising most people are just struggling to get by and get on with looking after children or holding down a job; and realise that the rest of the world is exactly the same without any difference. Suddenly those in power start looking to be living pretty easy.

Not a proponent of socialism as it does not work, give a human power and they have the temptation of corruption; but at the same time there needs to be some control of rampant capitalism where banks can invent money at the press of a button. I don't have the answers and I suspect we will live with many years of threats and bloodshed just to keep a small percentage of the world in their definition of comfort.

I suggest for those who haven't; try and watch "The Power of Nightmares and the Rise of the Polics of Fear" which was shown on the BBC some years ago. This really changed my sure fire view of the world.
Another video to watch is this little gem on Fiat currency again explains a few things that current affairs programmes go on about but never explain in a bid to keep you in your place.

rick_chasey

Go read Orientalism by Edward Said.

It will help your understanding.

symo

Rick Chasey wrote:

Go read Orientalism by Edward Said.

It will help your understanding.

roger that.

Daz555

The only long term solution is for the West to wean itself off its addiciton to oil.

If we move into an economic environment not so dependant upon the burning of the black stuff we would not need to concern ourselves with the political and economic goings-on in the less stable plarts of our little planet - bar pure humanitarian concerns.

It can't happen overnight but the slow process needs to start sooner rather than later.

Cleat Eastwood

Daz555 wrote:

The only long term solution is for the West to wean itself off its addiciton to oil.

If we move into an economic environment not so dependant upon the burning of the black stuff we would not need to concern ourselves with the political and economic goings-on in the less stable planets of our little planet - bar pure humanitarian concerns.

It can't happen over-night but the slow process needs to start sooner rather than later.

+1

Or the capitalist west accepts that its world view isn't the only one that matters - either way its not going to happen soon - not as long as people like maddie albright believe - she genuinely said this - that the lives five hundred thousand children - yes 500,000 children - is a price worth paying for further western influence in the middle east.

liquor box

Daz555 wrote:

The only long term solution is for the West to wean itself off its addiciton to oil.

If we move into an economic environment not so dependant upon the burning of the black stuff we would not need to concern ourselves with the political and economic goings-on in the less stable plarts of our little planet - bar pure humanitarian concerns.

It can't happen overnight but the slow process needs to start sooner rather than later.

I dont think potential terrorists care about our reliance on oil, in fact if we were to stop funding these countries with our purchases we would probably infuriate them into more hatred.

I am afraid that no matter what changes the west makes there will always be a hated for the western world. Always.

DesB3rd

read Orientalism

Can't say I ever read the text but understanding the narrative was part of my uni requirements (just another book that got quoted & made it's way onto my bibliographies without my ever having made a crack at a cover to cover read...)

The novelty with the rather moral official representation of America's ME interventions & nation building is that it very openly made an issue of how its actions were guided by a belief in the universality of human want & ambition. Democracy, the rule of law & respect of the individual were not viewed as something "we do" but rather something that no one is precluded from the virtues of by cultural & religious background & is ultimately something that all are happier in the presence of.