Has anyone ever actually used their liability insurance?

davmaggs

A rather heated debate offline about the merits of liability insurance for cycling commuters. I won't bang on about it here.

Rather than quoting the usual "what if" type scenarios where people claim that you could lose your house in legal fees, I would like to ask;

- Have you ever actually had a third party claim against you? - If you had insurance did the company pay out (legal fees to defend and/or then in settlement)? - If you didn't have insurance did you have to pay out personally because the courts ruled against you?

I want to stick to actual cases rather than the blurb from the industry or people who have a policy, but never used it.


edit; tidy up wording

rick_chasey

No. Never used it.

cyclingprop

Edit: It's clearly hometime and I didn't read the question.

bigmat

I imagine a quick search of the Daily Mail online would alert you to any significant judgments in civil claims against cyclists. Of course, there could be scores of claims being settled out of court, I somehow doubt it though. Fact is, we're really not much of a threat to the general public (Petronella Wyatt's mother excepted).

As for "If you didn't have insurance did the courts rule against you?", I can't imagine the lack of insurance would make any difference to the court's decision (they wouldn't necessarily be aware of the insurance position), however not being insured would probably put off anybody claiming against you.

davmaggs

cyclingprop wrote:

Yes, in order to fix my bike and chase down the third party, who then reimbursed my insurer (he drove in to me).

A separate injury lawyer handled that part of the case.

The injury lawyer would have been free anyway, so I'll park any injury money to one side

I'd understood that the liability insurance was to pay out for your blunders. Are you saying that the company insuring you actually paid for your bike to be repaired (out of a liability policy)?

davmaggs

BigMat wrote:

I imagine a quick search of the Daily Mail online would alert you to any significant judgments in civil claims against cyclists. Of course, there could be scores of claims being settled out of court, I somehow doubt it though. Fact is, we're really not much of a threat to the general public (Petronella Wyatt's mother excepted).

As for "If you didn't have insurance did the courts rule against you?", I can't imagine the lack of insurance would make any difference to the court's decision (they wouldn't necessarily be aware of the insurance position), however not being insured would probably put off anybody claiming against you.

I've clearly not worded the question correctly. I wasn't saying that lack of insurance counted against you, not at all.

I meant did you lose a case, but not have insurance to pay out on your behalf e.g your wallet got smashed for the bill?

TheEnglishman

I'm using it now. 'No Win, No Fee' isn't quite exactly that and I've found having my own insurance definitely takes the stress out of the entire situation.

estampida

well there's is a wee issue there

you would have to do something wrong, to the point that it was worth suing you over

if you don't crash or cause damage and stay within the law, who will sue you?

bails87

I think people are misunderstanding what liability insurance means.

Liability insurance will pay a third party (e.g, a car driver, a pedestrian, another cyclist) if you damage their property, cause them an injury, or cost them money in some other way due to your negligence.

Legal support, on the other hand, is a service that basically gives you a hotline to an 'approved' firm of solicitors who will represent you to reclaim costs when you are the 'out of pocket' third party and someone else has been negligent.

I am currently using the BC legal support, I've never used my liability insurance, or had any threat of having to use it.

bails87

estampida wrote:

well there's is a wee issue there

you would have to do something wrong, to the point that it was worth suing you over

if you don't crash or cause damage and stay within the law, who will sue you?

Well yeah, but the same goes for car drivers....I'm not sure what your point is. I could very easily have a clipless moment and topple onto a car, damaging a panel or two. That would be expensive but my liability insurance would pay for it.

davmaggs

estampida wrote:

well there's is a wee issue there

you would have to do something wrong, to the point that it was worth suing you over

if you don't crash or cause damage and stay within the law, who will sue you?

I'd like to stay on topic please.

gbsahne001

davmaggs wrote:

BigMat wrote:

I've clearly not worded the question correctly. I wasn't saying that lack of insurance counted against you, not at all.

I meant did you lose a case, but not have insurance to pay out on your behalf e.g your wallet got smashed for the bill?

I received a bill from the Royal Mail for repair work to the back of one of their vans that I'd run into, smashing my collarbone and writing off the bike in the process.... does that count? At the time I had no insurance and ended up stumping up approx £400

mroli

I contacted British Cycling after I was in an accident - country lane, car coming the other way. He tried to claim £500 off of me - I said contact my insurers or I'll give you £200 (to save the hassle - debatable who was in the wrong, but I felt some culpability). He moaned and grumbled until I pointed out that if I had been a car driver, he would be in exactly the same position and I was in fact doing him a favour by not going through insurers. He took (with bad grace) the £200.

bails87

Why on earth would you choose to pay £200?!

dalifnei

This is an interesting thread. I'm a personal injury solicitor and have dealt with a wide variety of accidents over a few years. Out of them all I can only recall 1 accident where a cyclist was at fault and I think the view was taken that as they had no assets the claim was not worth pursuing... had they held liability insurance it would have been a different matter.

It is conceivable that you could cause an accident and become liable for significant sums - for example if you pulled out into the path of a car and caused it to collide with another vehicle (very basic example). If you did not have liability insurance but did have assets - eg a house - you could face problems. I understand that many home insurance policies may cover you.

I am about to arrange liability insurance for myself and have seen some good deals out there. And some apparently good deals that have a whopping excess!

Aidy

davmaggs wrote:

- Have you ever actually had a third party claim against you? - If you had insurance did the company pay out (legal fees to defend and/or then in settlement)?

Yes. No idea if they paid out, I sent everything off to the CTC's insurance thingy, never heard anything more.

I hope they didn't pay out, it was in no way my fault.

inkz

I like the comfort of the BC legal support probably more than the liability insurance. I know that if I ever have an accident, who I need to call and when I commute 5 times a day, it's not exactly low in probability that I will have a problem at some point.

That's what made me take it out for the sake of £20 (with £10 cashback).

I've not had to use it yet.

pangolin

InkZ wrote:

I like the comfort of the BC legal support probably more than the liability insurance. I know that if I ever have an accident, who I need to call and when I commute 5 times a day, it's not exactly low in probability that I will have a problem at some point.

That's what made me take it out for the sake of £20 (with £10 cashback).

I've not had to use it yet.

25 commutes a week?! I do 10 at most

gosport_commuter

I joined CTC mostly for the insurance (partly for the end to end routes) after pulling out of a side road INTO the side of a moving van I had failed to spot. Everyone luckily was fine, but I had smashed his wing mirror off with my bars/hand. I suffered nothing more than a couple of bruises and had to twist my bars straight, but I instantly realised I was at fault and liable for the damage I had caused. I offered to pay, but as it turns out it was a company Van and he was more than happy to sort it himself.

I was lucky that day, but straight away it became obvious that I needed insurance - I dont want to be paying out for someones ferarri panels as well as recovering from an unfortunate accident!

TheStone

I would imagine it's very rarely used, otherwise it'd be a lot more expensive.

If you get your own, it's around £30/year and I'd guess nearly all of that is admin costs. What do CTC/BC pay per member for the insurance? I'd expect way below £5.

kieranb

well, not exactly but on holidays in France, one of the family bikes fell and scratched a car. The owner claimed for damages but our holiday insurance covered it.

gosport_commuter

The insurance is part of the membership, so for

CTC - £39
BC Ride - £24 (membership for commuters/casual)
BC Silver - £36 (provisional race licence plus extras)

At the moment. Well worth it IMO - which one you go for probably depends on the type of cycling you do.

davmaggs

TheStone wrote:

I would imagine it's very rarely used, otherwise it'd be a lot more expensive.

If you get your own, it's around £30/year and I'd guess nearly all of that is admin costs. What do CTC/BC pay per member for the insurance? I'd expect way below £5.

I was thinking along those lines. I wonder if its it a bit of an invented market, perhaps like Chancel insurance for house buying where they price it so low compared to the frightening what-if scenario that people just buy it. Yet, in reality the premiums are just free money as pay outs are as immensely rare.

TheStone

davmaggs wrote:

I was thinking along those lines. I wonder if its it a bit of an invented market, perhaps like Chancel insurance for house buying where they price it so low compared to the frightening what-if scenario that people just buy it. Yet, in reality the premiums are just free money as pay outs are as immensely rare.

Also, the fact that the premiums are so low, the govt could just shut the whole daily mail crowd up by effectively insuring all cyclists. Would probably cost £20m.

Agent57

- Have you ever actually had a third party claim against you?

Well, a guy made me pay for a new wing mirror when I knocked his off.

Aside from that, no other claims have been made against me. But I've been lucky or skilled enough not to have many incidents that would make it likely. I do have the insurance though (both BC and CTC, for different reasons).

cookdn

Yes, very useful even if you are not liable for a collision and the other party attempts to make a claim.

A few years ago a driver pulled out of a side road into a bus lane and then suddenly stopped because of traffic preventing them completing their right turn onto the main road. I was pedalling at 20+ MPH as the bus lane was down a slight hill. This was in my days of commuting on a MTB with slicks, no way I was going to stop but separated myself from the bike by putting it into a slide. The bike hit the car, luckily I didn't. Reaction of the car driver was that I was going too fast :roll: and she got rather upset because her company car now had rather damaged offside rear bodywork. Exchanged details and went on our way.

A couple of weeks later got letter from her company legal department claiming for the damage (fleet policy excesses tend to be big). Just passed it onto my home insurer to deal with under the third-party liability cover on our home contents policy. They handled things from there and denied responsibility on my behalf.

Even though a lot of people are covered for third-party liability with their home insurer, I still think there is value in having cycle specific cover from the likes of British Cycling. One, they can handle both sides of the claim together, two, they are more specialist in handling collisions/incidents involving cyclists.

Best regards
David

hjghg5

I haven't used mine yet, but I'm glad I have it.

Firstly I could be at fault. And second someone might claim I am even if I don't think so. The situation that actually worries me most is pedestrians who step out in front of me and say I was going faster than they realise. They don't have insurance of their own and might have a go.

But thirdly and most importantly it gives me an answer when people go on about me having no insurance and having no right to be on the roads - if nothing else it shows that I'm being responsible about cycling on the roads.

walkingbootweather

Don't get me wrong, bike specific insurance seems like a good idea, but what you going to do when the shopping trolley you are pushing damages a car, or the kite you are flying lands on somebodies head, or your pet deer runs into ITB?

Are you going to get general liability insurance for 'life', and if you do, won't that cover you for bike related accidents too?