Wheels - Factory or Handbuilt at the £400 price point?

Rostropovich

Hello,

I'd be grateful for your opinions please! I'm looking for a wheel to handle training/sportive duties and will be replacing a set of Fulcrum 1s which, sadly, I have had a few issues with (mainly hub problems with both wheels, freewheel engagement warranty claim plus a very quickly worn front rim) - generally they should have ticked all the boxes - they did ride beautifully... I think my experience may be fairly unique and I just got a bit unlucky.

To replace them I'm considering having a wheelbuilder lace H PLus Son Archetype rims (23mm width, like HED Ardennes/Velocity A23) to Novatec SL hubs with either Sapim Laser or CX-Ray spokes. I'll probably put 28 spokes on the rear and 20 on the front. With either spoke choice the build comes in at less than 1.5Kg.

The price being quoted and the weight puts them in the same league as the Mavic Ksyrium Elites which seem to be generally well regarded on this forum and, I think (?), have a reputation for longevity and stiffness (which are both important to me!)

Having had issues with factory wheels in the past, but not with Mavic, I'm tempted to go with handbuilt - but having said this the H Plus Son/Novatec build isn't exactly widely reviewed or tried and tested like the Mavics.

What would you do if you were me? Elites (seem like a safe choice) or H PLus Son/Novatec handbuilt? I guess I'm really looking for a reason not to go with the handbuilts before I pull the trigger on them. The bike is a Cervelo R3 Team if "image" and wheels is important (it might be).

Thanks

napoleond

I have an R3 team and Ksyrium Elites. But I also have some lighter hand built wheels too...

The Archetypes in all black would certainly look great with the R3...

Ksyriums are not the most aero wheel out there (barn door) but they ride really well and are very stiff. For general riding they are perfect factory built wheels...

drlodge

What's your weight? A 20 spoke front wheel using Sapim laser would need a pretty light fella to be reliable, and using CX-Ray spokes on a training/sportive wheel will cost you an extra £100 for no benefit. I have laser spokes on my front wheel, I weigh 80kg but have 32 of them.

If using Novatec SL hub, you'll need a strong rim due to the lower flange distance, those Archetype rims look not dissimilar to CXP-33s. Harry Rowland does Novatec SL hubs, CXP33s and Sapim Race spokes (28/28) for £280 which would make an excellent set of training wheels.

Harry Rowland will build you a pair of wheels using Novatec SL hubs, CXP33 rims and 28 Sapim Race spokes front and rear for £280pr. And they will be reliable

Rostropovich

Thanks both for the advice. It is strangely empowering to know that a fellow R3 owner thinks the H Plus Son will look the business.
The spoke info is particularly helpful as yes the price difference is considerable. I think on this basis I may go for a 24/28 Laser configuration (I tend to weigh no more than 75kg after pies, usually 72kg after riding through the pie barrier). The price of the CXP 33 build is attractive but I'm not sure I could live with the decals (...so take them off I hear you shout;-))
Thanks again.

napoleond

The H Plus Sons look MILES better than the mavics... They look like carbon tubs

Rostropovich

very nice
and 20:24 too...
hmmm

drlodge

Rostropovich wrote:

I may go for a 24/28 Laser configuration (I tend to weigh no more than 75kg after pies, usually 72kg after riding through the pie barrier).

As these wheels are to be used for training and sportives rather than racing, and consdering your weight which is not excessive but you're not exactly a weasle either , I would seriously consider using the Race spokes (2/1.8mm) rather than the Laser (2/1.5mm). The laser spokes will not provide a sufficiently strong wheel, particular at the rear and on the drive side. You might get away with 24 laser spokes on the front, but why run the risk of spokes breaking for the sake of a few grams? 24/28 with race spokes should be fine.

ugo.santalucia

drlodge wrote:

Rostropovich wrote:

I may go for a 24/28 Laser configuration (I tend to weigh no more than 75kg after pies, usually 72kg after riding through the pie barrier).

As these wheels are to be used for training and sportives rather than racing, and consdering your weight which is not excessive but you're not exactly a weasle either , I would seriously consider using the Race spokes (2/1.8mm) rather than the Laser (2/1.5mm). The laser spokes will not provide a sufficiently strong wheel, particular at the rear and on the drive side. You might get away with 24 laser spokes on the front, but why run the risk of spokes breaking for the sake of a few grams? 24/28 with race spokes should be fine.

Exactly, laser at the front OK, at the rear... not sure... too much lateral flex and not enough fatigue strength...1500 grams set can be built even with only race throughout. As for the CX ray, it's mostly market hype, outside the high profile carbon rims, they really have no place, too expensive for the insignificant aero advantage they provide... also, they look ugly with shallow alloy rims

for the OP: come and see me, we are neighbours...

Rostropovich

I very much appreciate the helpful and knowledgable posts here. Very glad I asked. Thank you.

drlodge

Harry Rowland won't build laser spokes on the rear even with 32H hubs, and he knows his stuff.

napoleond

Have a read of these FAQs on the wheelsmith sight. I have a set of really light alloy clincher wheels built by him (1650g -bearing in mind the rear hub is a 32h 485g powertap pro!) I'm 90kg and they are fantastic. Front is 24h.

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/faq

drlodge

NapoleonD wrote:

Have a read of these FAQs on the wheelsmith sight. I have a set of really light alloy clincher wheels built by him (1650g -bearing in mind the rear hub is a 32h 485g powertap pro!) I'm 90kg and they are fantastic. Front is 24h.

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/faq

Quote:

"19. What's your recommendation for a £300 clincher wheelset to use all year round?

Rims and hubs by Ambrosio, spokes by ACI. Can't be beaten for price/performance for most riders.
Something built around Ambrosio Excellight SSC rims well respected by club racers as a perfect low-cost race wheelset. "

That's what I just had made up by Harry Rowland, Excellight rims on Campag Record hubs 32H with laser spokes on front and race spokes on rear. Mavic Open Pro rims are very similar, which I have on my 531 framed bike.

styxd

Stans Alpha rims are nice and light, they have "beefed" them up recently though. I think they still come in at under 400g though. Some of those on a set of Novatecs should be around 1300g I'd guess, and well within budget. You could probably afford them on some Hope hubs for around £400 - £450.

Rostropovich

Another quote from the Wheelsmith FAQ :P

26. Is NapD from BikeRadar on commission?

* No, we have never met the guy but he does know his onions. Don't be fooled by his self-effacing ways, he is clued-up on bike stuff.


Again - thanks for all the help - I'll look into some cheaper alternatives if the performance isn't going to be compromised.

I am quite keen on the 23mm width of the Archetype as I run A23s on PMP hubs on my commuter (with Lasers on the back - 36h! - bought second hand, now I'm not so sure about how "bomb proof" they'll really be after the advice above).

I haven't pumped the tyres on the A23s for two weeks so they've been running down from an already low 90psi to start with (as lower pressures are recommended for the A23s to compliment the tyre profile). I have no idea of the psi they've reached this morning (will check this evening), but they were certianly riding very sweetly today. No obvious drag issues but such a lovely ride and the cornering was spot on - and this was on a Conti hardshell 23s. It's probably excessive wanting another set of wheels for the other bike if I already have these but with 36 silver spokes and silver hubs on each wheel they're certainly much more suited to the steel commuter and swapping them over between bikes all the time would be a real pain. Excuses excuses.

The main reasons I wouldn't choose to buy another set of A23s is simply that having two sets isn't very imaginative and they really do look very very dull! Apparently the newer tubeless versions are significantly heavier on scales although this may not be advertised. Allegedly of course.

markos1963

Wheelsmith built my back wheel with ACI spokes on the drive side and Lasers on the non drive(Lasers on the front). I'm 80kg and have raced and TT'd on this set up for three seasons now without any breakages or truing needed. I'd go handbuilt if I were you.