Middle East protests and 'that' film

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  • daviesee
    daviesee Posts: 6,386
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    walkingbootweather wrote:
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    Why not just turn the other cheek?

    You've been to old firm match right?

    Many.... and in general it is good fun, banter and I have very good friends on both sides. But there is a hard core radical element on both sides, that sadly detracts from the sporting behaviour, and to an extent, this has turned me against it.
    Which can be applied to any group of people.
    Or religions even....
    None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.
  • Wallace1492
    Wallace1492 Posts: 3,707
    daviesee wrote:
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    walkingbootweather wrote:
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    Why not just turn the other cheek?

    You've been to old firm match right?

    Many.... and in general it is good fun, banter and I have very good friends on both sides. But there is a hard core radical element on both sides, that sadly detracts from the sporting behaviour, and to an extent, this has turned me against it.
    Which can be applied to any group of people.
    Or religions even....

    I was alluding to the religious side.... glad you and walkingbootweather spotted that!
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Il Principe wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    We in the West are in no position to decide whether their behaviour is acceptable or not.

    What a load of crap. Their behaviour was illegal for a start, and morally reprehensible. FWIW my wife is a Turkish Muslim and gets really f*cking annoyed by behaviour like this. Islam has simply been used as an excuse to riot/vent grievances with the West.

    Morals are pretty relative, especially when we're talking about different cultures and faiths.

    I'm not referring to the killing of a Western official here, more the rioting. That's obviously not acceptable.

    If we take out the killing for a moment - what is wrong with using Islam as an excuse to vent grievences anyway?

    We're not in a position to say if their grievence with the depiction is legitimate or not.

    The rioting doesn't affect you. It affects them. So why get annoyed?
    _
  • Wallace1492
    Wallace1492 Posts: 3,707
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Il Principe wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    We in the West are in no position to decide whether their behaviour is acceptable or not.

    What a load of crap. Their behaviour was illegal for a start, and morally reprehensible. FWIW my wife is a Turkish Muslim and gets really f*cking annoyed by behaviour like this. Islam has simply been used as an excuse to riot/vent grievances with the West.

    Morals are pretty relative, especially when we're talking about different cultures and faiths.

    I'm not referring to the killing of a Western official here, more the rioting. That's obviously not acceptable.

    If we take out the killing for a moment - what is wrong with using Islam as an excuse to vent grievences anyway?

    We're not in a position to say if their grievence with the depiction is legitimate or not.

    The rioting doesn't affect you. It affects them. So why get annoyed?

    It radicalises views that the middle east have regarding the west. Of course we should get annoyed. Fistly because the film was made, sheer provocative behaviour, secondly, the riots will have been orchastrated by the more radical elements in the respective countries, and will lead to misery and plenty of other deaths, so far 15 dead and about 80 injured, mostly locals. Hidden agenda's will be followed and terrorists will use it as an excuse to target Soft targets.
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    You can't hold the people who made the film responsible for the deaths and injuries.

    It's almost like those Eminem accusations, otherwise.

    'He made me do it!'.
    _
  • Wallace1492
    Wallace1492 Posts: 3,707
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can't hold the people who made the film responsible for the deaths and injuries.

    It's almost like those Eminem accusations, otherwise.

    'He made me do it!'.

    Yes you can. It is very apparent that such a film would spark outrage and protest, leading to riots and death. The Danish Cartoon controversy led to over 100 deaths, so it would be apparent to the makers that the same would happen.

    Edit: However I would say that the nature of the Muslim radical's sadly results in the reaction we have seen. The film should not have led to riots and death, but it must have been obvious it would. I am all for a world whee that film could be made and condemed without the associated rioting and death, but its not the reality we live in.
    "Encyclopaedia is a fetish for very small bicycles"
  • JamesB5446
    JamesB5446 Posts: 471
    pangolin wrote:
    Yup :) Don't know that I've ever thought of myself as 'unconditionally revering' it, but I believe the bible.
    Why?
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Religion itself isn't a bad thing...
    It is.
  • byke68
    byke68 Posts: 1,070
    I'd rather read The Satanic Bible, oh, hang on, I have. Makes more sense than the Bible. :twisted:
    Cannondale Trail 6 - crap brakes!
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  • SteppenHerring
    SteppenHerring Posts: 720
    Religious debates on the internet are always counterproductive. I'd leave it (although I'm a devout atheist myself).

    Sounds to me like the "film" is just an excuse for people who already have a grievance against the US. Plus people over there stirring it. Mind you, the Hindus never complained when they called a bear Yogi.
  • Greg T
    Greg T Posts: 3,266
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Morals are pretty relative, especially when we're talking about different cultures and faiths.

    Moral relativism is a cop out.

    It's wrong to kill someone because your they've hurt your feelings or offended your God. My morals are right in this - it is OK to believe that someone else's moral code is inferior or wrong - just because they live somewhere else and have been brought up with it doesn't excuse it.

    We should overcome our reticence to criticise other cultures to avoid offence.
    Fixed gear for wet weather / hairy roadie for posing in the sun.

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  • jejv
    jejv Posts: 566
    JamesB5446 wrote:
    pangolin wrote:
    Yup :) Don't know that I've ever thought of myself as 'unconditionally revering' it, but I believe the bible.
    Why?
    EKE_38BPM wrote:
    Religion itself isn't a bad thing...
    It is.
    It depends what it leads you to do. I don't think there is such a thing as a violent radical Bahá'í or member of the United Reformed Church.

    I'm an atheiest, and have been since I was 8 or 9, but the OH's family has generations of ministers. The Christian beliefs of the OH's Uncle & Aunt lead them to work on the Broadwater Farm Estate. They sought to help the community thy lived in, without regard to race, creed - if any, or skin colour. They ran youth groups. They worked to help the refugee comunity in London - for example to prevent children being deported by Jack Straw to the regime that had murdered their parents. Their home was also home to refugees, or young people from London who they believed they could help. And some of those people turned out alright.

    Then I found their services quite grating.

    Surely - say - the parable of the good samaritan - has a meaning beyond religeous identity ?

    Islam does not have to be as it is now - a religon often of ignorance, insecurity, tribal identity, and failure.

    In the golden age of Islam Christians, Jews, and people of other religons could - generally - go about their business within Islamic states without without fear of persecution.
  • hstiles
    hstiles Posts: 414
    phy2sll2 wrote:
    CiB wrote:
    You know how when the DM prints an anti-cycling piece and the trolls wade in to tell the world how all cyclists are moronic law-breaking baby-murderers and then some of the more enthusiastic cyclists who've been made aware of what's been said go marching in all guns blazing and shout the trolls down? Religious extremism is that on stilts. With brass knobs thrown in.

    Couldn't agree more.

    Anyone catch the furore over the editorial piece in this month's Richmond and Barnes Magazine? You couldn't hope to find a more perfect example.
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    edited September 2012
    No-one murdered because of this image.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one ... age,29553/

    Now, add a certain prophet into that image........
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • JamesB5446
    JamesB5446 Posts: 471
    jejv wrote:
    The Christian beliefs of the OH's Uncle & Aunt lead them to work on the Broadwater Farm Estate. They sought to help the community thy lived in, without regard to race, creed - if any, or skin colour...
    Did they?
    Or did the fact that they are good people lead them to do good deeds?
    If it's the former then that is rather disappointing. It's far more admirable to do good because you want to do good, rather than as an insurance policy against going to hell.
  • jejv
    jejv Posts: 566
    JamesB5446 wrote:
    jejv wrote:
    The Christian beliefs of the OH's Uncle & Aunt lead them to work on the Broadwater Farm Estate. They sought to help the community thy lived in, without regard to race, creed - if any, or skin colour...
    Did they?
    Or did the fact that they are good people lead them to do good deeds?
    If it's the former then that is rather disappointing. It's far more admirable to do good because you want to do good, rather than as an insurance policy against going to hell.
    They're hardly Amos Starkadder.

    Hell isn't a necessary part of Chistianity.
    I think their philosophy would be more influenced by the Gospels.
    I would say that their Christian philosophy was a part of what lead them to be non-state social workers.
  • whitebait01
    whitebait01 Posts: 610
    Daz555 wrote:
    No-one murdered because of this image.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one ... age,29553/

    Now, add a certain prophet into that image........

    Yes! I was going to post this. NSFW but illustrates the point rather well.
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  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,339
    Some good analysis of this on R4 the other night. One of the points was that various Middle Eastern regimes have deliberately fueled anti-Western sentiment within their own populations (whilst at the same time appearing pro-Western to 'us') as a means of maintaining control. These regimes also have control of their state media, so there is an assumption that Western governments have similar control over their media, and that as the films/cartoons/books have not been banned then they must have been sanctioned by the Western governments. This explains why the protests are being targeted at Western embassies. There is also a lot of bandwagon-jumping by rightwing Islamic parties, seeking to gain political ground.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
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    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    You can't hold the people who made the film responsible for the deaths and injuries.
    Wallace1492 wrote:
    Yes you can. It is very apparent that such a film would spark outrage and protest, leading to riots and death. The Danish Cartoon controversy led to over 100 deaths, so it would be apparent to the makers that the same would happen.
    No.

    The murderous actions of a number of fundamentalist nutjobs who belong in the dark ages has nothing to do with cartoons and films - it has to do with hatred and bigotry and a desire to oppress freedom of expression.

    Hitch has something to say about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.

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