would you dope if

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Comments

  • Richrd2205
    Richrd2205 Posts: 1,267
    This question is a bit odd & pretty much, by definition, flawed: if you were in a situation that you have next to no information about & in consequence no basis to make a decision, would you do X?
    This question will be answered using attribute substitution since it can't be answered as it stands in any reasonable way, but we don't know what's being substituted, so what does the answer mean?
    It also completely ignores the effect of doping being "sociably" acceptable (with sociable referring to your immediate peer group), which would hugely alter all of our judgements, unless we have ASPD....
    We know that to reach the top level, folk are normally far more driven to win than the social norm.
    We know that fear of detection has a monstrously greater affect on behaviour than possible sanction.
    We know that "social norms" (again, immediate groups, rather than wide, inferred groups) have a huge effect on our behaviour.
    In the "bad old days" only freaks wouldn't have doped & continued to ride. I was fascinated by Hamilton's 1000 day rule as a piece of folk knowledge that exactly exemplified psychological principles. Bassons was seriously unusual & I hugely respect him. Would I have done the same? Aye right.....
    We rely on the Bassons of this world to give sparks that can lead to change. Do I have that commitment to an abstract (conforming to rules that everyone else ignores, so they become abstract)? I have a significant commitment to certain abstracts & I know that I'm unusual in this regard, but to that degree? Don't be daft....
    Far, far fewer than 1% of us would have refused dope in the nineties. Just now, it's hard to tell, since fear of detection and what other peers are doing (&, by extension, how much they worry about getting caught & if peers are being caught) are the main factors in any decision & almost none of us can quantify these in a current way accurately...
  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    Nope. Wouldn't cheat. The knowledge I had cheated and the fear that I would be found out and held out as a cheat would be too much for me, apart from my own personal ethical code.
    http://www.georgesfoundation.org
    http://100hillsforgeorge.blogspot.com/
    http://www.12on12in12.blogspot.co.uk/
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    If i was training hard, seeing results and wanted to train harder for longer today id use them. when i saw my colleagues struggling to cope with the demands of heavy training or racing schedules Id know it was the right thing to do.

    I see it pretty much the same as having better wheels, or coaches, or nutrion advice. ITs available to everyone and daft not to take advantage.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.

    Did you let them know?
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.

    Did you let them know?

    One of them was my lift home so it seemed bad form.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • inkyfingers
    inkyfingers Posts: 4,400
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.

    Did you let them know?

    One of them was my lift home so it seemed bad form.

    Omerta. You are part of the problem.
    "I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.


    not a lot really, it depends on your attitude to rules I suppose.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    inkyfingers wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.

    Did you let them know?

    One of them was my lift home so it seemed bad form.

    Omerta. You are part of the problem.

    I actually typed out your post word for word there and then deleted it!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    disgruntledgoat wrote:

    One of them was my lift home so it seemed bad form.


    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    inkyfingers wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.

    Did you let them know?

    One of them was my lift home so it seemed bad form.

    Omerta. You are part of the problem.

    Definitely omerta.

    You should be ashamed. Might as well be taking all the drugs.

    You're a disgrace. etc

    *fumbles around for mod hammer*

    They suck you in with the glamour of it all, like lifts to the race.

    Before you know it, you're knee deep in needles.
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    inkyfingers wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I saw some domestic pro guys talking to juniors about weight loss products and nutritional supplements at a race on sunday and did ponder what the difference was.

    Did you let them know?

    One of them was my lift home so it seemed bad form.

    Omerta. You are part of the problem.

    Definitely omerta.

    You should be ashamed. Might as well be taking all the drugs.

    You're a disgrace. etc

    *fumbles around for mod hammer*

    They suck you in with the glamour of it all, like lifts to the race.

    Before you know it, you're knee deep in needles.

    If it's morally no different, I may start. At least I'd have something to show for a 300 mile round trip and an overnight.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    Quick! Goat tell em you were planning to lose weight but didnt follow through with it.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    I wouldn't write too much on here. UCI might get you.

    Save it all up and write a book on it ;).

    Winning something would help for the front cover.
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    I wouldn't write too much on here. UCI might get you.

    Save it all up and write a book on it ;).

    Winning something would help for the front cover.

    There's that plan fooked then.

    I have often considered writing something on my ten years of bike racing. I'd call it "3rd Cat: Delusions of Grandeur."

    Revelations would be thin on the ground, however.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    I don't know, a number of e-mails I recieved (I was writing for a cycling website at the time and still doing some amateur racing with delusions of grandeur) from a bloke who used to ride for USPS in the very early days after he quit and blamed the dope were so unhinged that I seriously wondered if he'd just broken himself somehow.

    Strangely I can't remember his name but I remember he once signed off a lengthy, rambling e-mail with "The lies, the lies..."


    Matt DiCanio!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Teddy Westside
    Teddy Westside Posts: 221
    I wouldn't dope, no. I even hold off taking anything for a cold or headache for as long as I can, so the thought of taking any drug that wasn't strictly for the good of my health simply wouldn't appeal. (I only drink very occasionally and have never smoked, so that angle doesn't really apply to me either :wink: )

    Similarly, I wouldn't have a needle stuck in me unless it essential for my well-being. It's just not natural.

    Besides, as a player in a sport (ice hockey) where I've had to sign a document stating that I am clean and am prepared to submit myself to testing, the idea of being dishonest is abhorrent to me.

    Focus Cayo Expert (road)
    Giant ATX 970 (full susp)
    Trek Alpha 4300 (hardtail)
    Peugeot 525 Comp (road - turbo trainer duties)
  • finchy
    finchy Posts: 6,686
    Maybe if I were from some dirt poor background and becoming a pro would enable me to lift my family out of poverty. But then, the very second I managed that, the doping would stop.

    Like Teddy Westside, I only take medicine if necessary. I'm sitting here with a broken leg at the moment (picture here: viewtopic.php?f=30005&t=12879319 ) and even with 5 pins drilled into my bones, I'm avoiding the painkillers.
  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    Yay! 50% of us (as of my vote) are so angelic! :mrgreen:
  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    The Mad Rapper wrote:
    Yay! 50% of us (as of my vote) are so angelic! :mrgreen:

    :twisted: 50% are not, it gives me hope that the human race remains interesting :D
  • esafosfina
    esafosfina Posts: 131
    Had this dilemma in 1991. Answer is same today as it was then. No. (Although I wish I had a few $$$ more in the bank account...!)
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    esafosfina wrote:
    Had this dilemma in 1991. Answer is same today as it was then. No. (Although I wish I had a few $$$ more in the bank account...!)

    So then what do you feel about team mates who did and thus cost you $$$? Or were the dirty winnings shared with the team and how did you feel about that?

    EDIT: sorry that's a bit forthright, but am genuinely interested in the psychology of it all. Feel free to ignore the questions.
  • andy_wrx
    andy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Where did I read something recently (inrng ? if so can't find it now...) where they'd asked a whole set of top-level athletes the question of if they would take a drug which would improve their performance by 10% and guarantee them a medal but would knock 10 years off their life.
    Most 'normal' people would say No, they'd not think it worth it; but the athletes almost all said Yes
  • mrushton
    mrushton Posts: 5,182
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I wouldn't mind the opportunity to see how good it can make you. I'm a great scientific starting point 'cos I'm totally sh1t as a racer/TTer with the results to prove it.

    There was a test done some years ago by a journalist under medical supervision and it was printed in Outdoor Life. He took EPO and HGH mainly and the results weren't good, they were exceptional. He was a competent cyclist by his account but he was riding further,longer,faster and more often and there were a couple of good side effects and some bad ones (headaches).If I'd been talented and come out of an Eastern bloc/ country/Spain/Italy and everyone was doing it I may have been tempted as opposed to going working in the tractor factory or olive grove. Jacky Durand worked in the DAF factory and he always said that whenever he was having a bad day on the bike he just thought about that job and suddenly the bike seemed quite good.
    M.Rushton
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    mrushton wrote:
    Yellow Peril wrote:
    I wouldn't mind the opportunity to see how good it can make you. I'm a great scientific starting point 'cos I'm totally sh1t as a racer/TTer with the results to prove it.

    There was a test done some years ago by a journalist under medical supervision and it was printed in Outdoor Life. He took EPO and HGH mainly and the results weren't good, they were exceptional. He was a competent cyclist by his account but he was riding further,longer,faster and more often and there were a couple of good side effects and some bad ones (headaches).If I'd been talented and come out of an Eastern bloc/ country/Spain/Italy and everyone was doing it I may have been tempted as opposed to going working in the tractor factory or olive grove. Jacky Durand worked in the DAF factory and he always said that whenever he was having a bad day on the bike he just thought about that job and suddenly the bike seemed quite good.

    http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Dr ... l?page=all
  • esafosfina
    esafosfina Posts: 131
    skylla wrote:
    esafosfina wrote:
    Had this dilemma in 1991. Answer is same today as it was then. No. (Although I wish I had a few $$$ more in the bank account...!)

    So then what do you feel about team mates who did and thus cost you $$$? Or were the dirty winnings shared with the team and how did you feel about that?

    EDIT: sorry that's a bit forthright, but am genuinely interested in the psychology of it all. Feel free to ignore the questions.

    No worries skylla, all good mate! It pisses me off that some of my team-mates and rivals hit it hard and reaped benefits that I could have had if I'd abused... but i made an informed choice and I live with that. I never really considered that the winnings would have been tainted, to be honest I was quite glad of the salary top-up from prize-money! I am more annoyed that riders would charge up for team-training-rides, get selected to ride a classic, then fail miserably 'coz they couldn't dope in the race proper! I missed certain selection for Flanders, Wevelgem, and Roubaix due to two team-mates that were less than squeaky. The DS should have (I dare say he did know) known, but again 'omerta' raised it's ugly mug! Lessons learned I guess...
  • skylla
    skylla Posts: 758
    The 'charging up for training rides' to be selected for major races is an angle I'd never thought off. Thanks for sharing that. So can I ask, as a clean rider in a moderate to very successful team (late eighties/early nineties) were you able to make an ok living?

    You made the right choice, you can keep your head up high, and sleep at night! Was looking to the '89 pursuit final on you tube, it's memorable stuff for all the best of reasons! Best of luck with your businesses down under and hope you enjoyed the ToB?
  • esafosfina
    esafosfina Posts: 131
    Cheers skylla! I made above average wage, plus good bonuses. Prize money was scarce (I have an idea where it went!) but it topped up the pocket-money. As a neo-pro the contracts back then were nowhere as lucrative as today, but I didn't go without. My second year however was a debacle; missed out on close to £20k as the owner of ADR was declared bankrupt. The only riders to get their money were those with enough legal clout to take Lambert to court... I didn't!

    Moving back to the UK next year mate, so if you see me about say hello!
  • esafosfina
    esafosfina Posts: 131
    I also have to say; one of the major reasons I was never tempted to dope was that my training partner and room-mate at Tulip once stuck 5ml of 'Pot Belge' in his arse, only to hit a vein and keel over white as a sheet! I was scared witless, called an ambulance, found the DS and rode the emotions as the silly twat came round... things changed for me that day!
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    esafosfina wrote:
    I also have to say; one of the major reasons I was never tempted to dope was that my training partner and room-mate at Tulip once stuck 5ml of 'Pot Belge' in his ars*, only to hit a vein and keel over white as a sheet! I was scared witless, called an ambulance, found the DS and rode the emotions as the silly fool came round... things changed for me that day!


    Christ, that'd do it :shock:

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