Spanish ever been tested pos+ at Vuelta?
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Heras and Mosquera?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
David Garcia DaPena (Mosquera's teammate) too0
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From wiki, in the last 6 years also Aitor Gonzalez and Santiago Perez0
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Also, wonder if you take say, last 10 years, how many +ve's there are in each of the 3 GTs, are the +ve's pretty much split between them?0
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Ask the same question for French riders at the Tour and we have............"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0
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You'd have to adjust for certain things to get a meaningful comparison. The number of Spanish riders at each race and the number of tests conducted, for instance.mfin wrote:Also, wonder if you take say, last 10 years, how many +ve's there are in each of the 3 GTs, are the +ve's pretty much split between them?
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Personally I'm always skeptical of Australians at the TDU.1968, human content on bitumen.0 -
I've heard they take a drug which makes them give a damn about the race. This puts them at a significant advantage.Outsider art by Loan wrote:Personally I'm always skeptical of Australians at the TDU.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:Ask the same question for French riders at the Tour and we have............
Cyclisme a deux regles0 -
Outsider art by Loan wrote:
You'd have to adjust for certain things to get a meaningful comparison. The number of Spanish riders at each race and the number of tests conducted, for instance.mfin wrote:Also, wonder if you take say, last 10 years, how many +ve's there are in each of the 3 GTs, are the +ve's pretty much split between them?
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Personally I'm always skeptical of Australians at the TDU.
Yeah, i know it cant be taken as much of an accurate indicator of anything, but it might be interesting0 -
I tried to quickly research doping cases at the 3 main GTs for the years 2000-2011 and although I may not have discovered all, this is what I found …..mfin wrote:Also, wonder if you take say, last 10 years, how many +ve's there are in each of the 3 GTs, are the +ve's pretty much split between them?
- in the Giro, 28 cases plus one case of a rider not being allowed to start. Of the 28 cases, 16 were in 2001 and about three-quarters of those weren’t actually positives, but riders found to be in possession of doping products when the police did razzias and the riders concerned were then excluded from the Giro. The figure also includes Simoni in 2002, who was found not guilty.
- in the Tour, 29 cases, plus 10 riders not being allowed to start, one in 2000, the rest in 2006. Of the 29 cases, 9 weren’t actually positives but were the riders of the Kelme team which withdrew halfway-through in 2004 when the Operacion Puerto became known. Also included in the 29 is Rasmussen, who started, then midway-through was withdrawn because of missing tests before the Tour. The figure also includes Casper in 2008, who was found not guilty.
- in the Vuelta, 8 cases plus one case of a rider not being allowed to start and plus two cases of riders being retro-actively found guilty of doping during the Vuelta and their victories being annulled, one being David Millar.
The Vuelta clearly comes off worst in finding positives, but who knows, maybe there were less riders doping in the Vuelta, with its lower prestige and also almost at the end of the season.
Also, in defence of the Vuelta, if you look farther back in time, in the 1970s-1990s, when it took place in May, at least as many positives were discovered in the Vuelta as in the Tour, while practically none were discovered in the Giro during those decades.0 -
Pedro Delgado and Recio were outright accused by Sean Kelly of motor pacing when they were in a break away that basically was a theft of Robert Millar's GC lead and a theft of Britain's first grand tour win in 1985. Kelly's view was how could nearly the whole Skil team not bring back two tiny Spaniards? Robert Millar was also refused time checks by the race organisers in many people's view. Brad wasn't the first Brit to win a Grand tour in my or many fan's book. The Spanish judicary's eagerness to make Operation Puerto go away fits with what happened in the 1980s...they protect their own0
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Another rider who wasn’t protected was Angel Arroyo. After winning the 1982 Vuelta, he was found to have tested positive for a banned substance (an anti-depressant) and demoted to 13th place.
Another view of Robert Millar’s defeat suggests his team Peugeot were weak and/or ineptly directed by Roland Berland. Millar found himself alone in a group without team mates or allies.0 -
One believes what one wants to believe ...Dave_1 wrote:Pedro Delgado and Recio were outright accused by Sean Kelly of motor pacing when they were in a break away that basically was a theft of Robert Millar's GC lead and a theft of Britain's first grand tour win in 1985. .... Brad wasn't the first Brit to win a Grand tour in my or many fan's book.
The Spanish judicary's eagerness to make Operation Puerto go away fits with what happened in the 1980s...they protect their own
The records I’ve found show that of the positives during the Vueltas of the 80s, 70% were of Spanish riders, so not exactly protecting their own.
Also, before going too heavy in the cause of Robert Millar, don’t forget he was a positive in the Vuelta too (in 1992) and like for all riders found positive, it’s hard to believe they were caught the one day in their life they decided to try out something.
I don't know the incident to which you refer, but ultimately I imagine there is a swings and roundabouts outcome to many dealings (admittedly not necessarily the outcome one would prefer at any particular time).0 -
???knedlicky wrote:Also, before going too heavy in the cause of Robert Millar, don’t forget he was a positive in the Vuelta too (in 1992)0 -
knedlicky wrote:
One believes what one wants to believe ...Dave_1 wrote:Pedro Delgado and Recio were outright accused by Sean Kelly of motor pacing when they were in a break away that basically was a theft of Robert Millar's GC lead and a theft of Britain's first grand tour win in 1985. .... Brad wasn't the first Brit to win a Grand tour in my or many fan's book.
The Spanish judicary's eagerness to make Operation Puerto go away fits with what happened in the 1980s...they protect their own
The records I’ve found show that of the positives during the Vueltas of the 80s, 70% were of Spanish riders, so not exactly protecting their own.
Also, before going too heavy in the cause of Robert Millar, don’t forget he was a positive in the Vuelta too (in 1992) and like for all riders found positive, it’s hard to believe they were caught the one day in their life they decided to try out something.
I don't know the incident to which you refer, but ultimately I imagine there is a swings and roundabouts outcome to many dealings (admittedly not necessarily the outcome one would prefer at any particular time).
one believe's what one wants to believe? says knedlicky :roll: :roll: Only a poorly informed person wouldn't accept the unfairness of that race in 1985. And I stated these are the view of riders in that race, who were there and saw what happened. You knedlicky need to read up and you will find out that.0 -
Dave_1 wrote:I stated these are the view of riders in that race, who were there and saw what happened.
Which riders? Sean Kelly wasn't riding with Delgado and Recio, he was in the intermediate group, with Millar in the group behind. How did he see what was happening?
Perhaps Javier Minguez, director of Spanish team Zor had the biggest role in the outcome of that stage. One of his riders was second-placed behind Millar in the GC and in fact riding in the same group as Millar. He could have instructed members of Zor who were in the intermediate group to drop back. Depending on your point of view, you could say this was unfair. Later Minguez said he didn't defend Zor's second place, as he liked the idea of Delgado winning instead of Millar. A rather rare example of collaboration between Spanish teams.0 -
mari blanc wrote:Dave_1 wrote:I stated these are the view of riders in that race, who were there and saw what happened.
Which riders? Sean Kelly wasn't riding with Delgado and Recio, he was in the intermediate group, with Millar in the group behind. How did he see what was happening?
Perhaps Javier Minguez, director of Spanish team Zor had the biggest role in the outcome of that stage. One of his riders was second-placed behind Millar in the GC and in fact riding in the same group as Millar. He could have instructed members of Zor who were in the intermediate group to drop back. Depending on your point of view, you could say this was unfair. Later Minguez said he didn't defend Zor's second place, as he liked the idea of Delgado winning instead of Millar. A rather rare example of collaboration between Spanish teams.
Of course Kelly wasn't riding with Delgado and Recio..he was chasing further down the road. Didn't you know that? Kelly was quoted in Winning magazine in June of 1985 saying that he was surprised that his team could not pull back the Recio/Delgado break and the lead went out to something silly..the strong hint was motor pacing. Paying teams is part of the unwritten rules, as was the minor doping, but motor pacing is no way to win a race and that was what was hinted at. Wiggo would not have had Britain's first grand tour without this robbery by Pedro0
