I need to educate a driving instructor

EKE_38BPM

The other day I was cycling on a road with a 20 mph limit, holding a constant distance from the car in front and with a driving instructor's car (no passenger, so being driven by the instructor) behind. The road is quite narrow and has a few twists and turns, so I held primary to discourage a dangerous overtake by the car behind me, even though it was being driven by an instructor I didn't want to risk them giving it a go.

The car in front of me stopped at a red light, but not in the ASL box and I stopped behind it (the instructor's car stopped behind me) which is behind Keep Clear road markings at the junction. I didn't go past because of oncoming traffic preventing me from overtaking to get into the ASL.
In the image I've linked to, I was travelling in the opposite direction to the direction the image was taken and the traffic lights were in effect (so I would have been behind the green van in the image).

Still with me? Good.

A short way after this set of lights the road widens to three lanes and there is another set of lights.
Again, the car in front of me stopped at the lights, I stopped behind it and the instructor's car stopped behind me, but inbetween moving from the first set of light and the second, the instructor repeatedly sounded their horn and when I turned round giving the universal "WTF?!" hand signal, the driver was gesticulating wildly, pointing to the left and right. I shook my head and stopped behind the car in front, again, now way (or need) to filter past it. I was turning left at the lights, so I was in the left hand lane.

When the lights changed to green, the car in front of me moved off, I indicated left and started moving off. The instructor carried on beeping at me and as he passed (he was going straight ahead) he stopped and shouted at me that I was "riding in the middle of the road". I said that I expected better from an instructor and went about my merry way.

About a mile later I saw the same instructor had just parked at the side of the road and was getting out of the car (he had taken a different route), so I stopped and, believe it or not, I said "Ah, my friend" and tried to have a civil conversation asking why he had beeped at me.

The knuckle dragger began ranting and raving at me, saying I was holding him up, that he knows the law and I HAD to ride no more than one metre from the kerb. I argued the toss (civilly, not shouting) saying that I rode in primary because the road was narrow and I wanted to ensure that a dangerous overtake wouldn't happen and that I didn't hold him up as I was easily keeping up with the car in front of me (and therefore him), but I couldn't quote the Highway Code back at him so feel that he will still think he's in the right even though I know he was in the wrong. When we went our separate ways, a few peds who had witnessed the "debate" said the bloke is obviously an idiot.

I'm going to email him in an attempt to educate him. As well as recommending that he read Cycle Craft, what relevant sections of the Highway Code should I quote to him to prove that I don't have to ride in the gutter and that he was generally being a dick (sounding the horn to imtimidate)? I'm also in the mood to let the DoT know he's an idiot too.

He really wound me up, as the length of this post probably testifies to.
And breathe...

gtvlusso

And he is the exact reason that there are drivers out there, as in Kelsons BMW case, that don't believe that they have done anything wrong when they knock you off or cause an incident.

Hope you are okay mate - FWIW, I would let it lie.....

You could contact the instutute of driving instructors with a complaint.....I am sure there must be an association, somewhere.....

Ian.B

This, for a start:

112
The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively.

slowbike

EKE_38BPM wrote:

but inbetween moving from the first set of light and the second, the instructor repeatedly sounded their horn and when I turned round giving the universal "WTF?!" hand signal, the driver was gesticulating wildly, pointing to the left and right. I shook my head and stopped behind the car in front, again, now way (or need) to filter past it.

so was his use of the horn in accordance with this:

112

The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn

while stationary on the road
when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am

except when another road user poses a danger..

??

EKE_38BPM

gtvlusso wrote:

And he is the exact reason that there are drivers out there, as in Kelsons BMW case, that don't believe that they have done anything wrong when they knock you off or cause an incident.

Hope you are okay mate - FWIW, I would let it lie.....

You could contact the instutute of driving instructors with a complaint.....I am sure there must be an association, somewhere.....

I'm fine, just angry. I went on holiday shortly after it happened and was going to let it lie, but Kelsen's BMW case re-opened the wound (metaphorically).
An email to the instructor to edumacate the idiot and another to the instructor's professional body to complain is what I'm thinking of doing.

Ian.B wrote:

This, for a start:

112
The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively.

This is the kind of thing I want. Any more?

EKE_38BPM

Slowbike wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

but inbetween moving from the first set of light and the second, the instructor repeatedly sounded their horn and when I turned round giving the universal "WTF?!" hand signal, the driver was gesticulating wildly, pointing to the left and right. I shook my head and stopped behind the car in front, again, now way (or need) to filter past it.

so was his use of the horn in accordance with this:

112

The horn. Use only while your vehicle is moving and you need to warn other road users of your presence. Never sound your horn aggressively. You MUST NOT use your horn

while stationary on the road
when driving in a built-up area between the hours of 11.30 pm and 7.00 am

except when another road user poses a danger..

??

The horn was sounded aggressively. I'm not sure if the horn was sounded whilst stationary as I was facing forward. The incident happened in the afternoon, so well within the permitted hours.

gllewellyn

Cyclecraft (page 88) says:

The primary riding position should be your normal riding position when you can keep up with traffic, when you need to emphasise your presence to traffic ahead, or when you need to prevent following drivers from passing you unsafely.

You were fulfilling 2 of those criteria.

Unfortunately, I can't find anything in the highway code about riding in primary.

Driving Instructors Association: http://www.driving.org/contact

Complain about him I say - even if you had been in the wrong (which you weren't), his attitude was completely inappropriate.

graeme_s-2

I saw an instructor last night who'd parked up to use their mobile phone. They'd parked in a mandatory cycle lane

I did feel like pulling over and pointing this out, but I just couldn't be arsed.

walkingbootweather

Link to Directgov site

Containts potentially useful snippets:

How to complain about the attitude of your instructor
If your complaint is about the attitude of your ADI, you can:

send an email to
adireg@dsa.gsi.gov.uk

send a letter to: ADI Section, DSA, The Axis Building, 112 Upper Parliament Street, Nottingham, NG1 6LP
You will need to give as much information as possible in your complaint

.

and

DSA:

investigates every case of suspected illegal driving or riding tuition
works closely with the police to take possible offenders to court
If someone offers you paid driving or riding instruction and they aren't qualified, report it to DSA by:

phone on 0115 936 6051 (during office hours)
sending an email to:
integrity.team@dsa.gsi.gov.uk

davis

From the The Driving Standards Agency

The DSA wrote:

How to complain about the attitude of your instructor

If your complaint is about the attitude of your ADI, you can:

* send an email to
* adireg@dsa.gsi.gov.uk
* send a letter to: ADI Section, DSA, The Axis Building, 112 Upper Parliament Street, Nottingham, NG1 6LP

You will need to give as much information as possible in your complaint.

slowbike

I dunno what it is about driving instructors .. they seem a dim lot ... (well - the two I've met anyway!)

first one (he was driving) wouldn't overtake me - despite it being an A road - I was only managing sub15 up a short hill - he stuck behind - ok fair enough - it is solid doubles in the middle ... crested and the solid doubles continue - I'm now up to around 15-16 (its not fast I know!) - but he still won't go past despite plenty of room for him to do so ... in the end I sat up, turned around and waved him past ... much to the relief of the queue behind him ...

second one in the estate where I work - had a learner driving, doing 3 point turn - no prob so far ... pulls across the road to the otherside - my lane is clear, but the driver immediately puts it into reverse and the brake lights are on ... I then stop because I don't know what this learner is going to do - I've seen learners make the car jump back as they slip off the pedals - the instructor waves me past but the car is still primed to reverse into the lane she wants me to pass along.... no way ... pop it out of reverse and I'll be on my way - or finish your manoeuvre and we'll be fine...
Eventually the instructor grudgingly takes it out of reverse and we (there's a queue of cars at this point - not that I'm blocking them - they're waiting too!) are on our way ...

davis

Slowbike wrote:

first one (he was driving) wouldn't overtake me - despite it being an A road - I was only managing sub15 up a short hill - he stuck behind - ok fair enough - it is solid doubles in the middle ... crested and the solid doubles continue - I'm now up to around 15-16 (its not fast I know!) - but he still won't go past despite plenty of room for him to do so

Yeah, we call that "obeying the law". The instructor was in the right. However, I don't think most people mind someone crossing solid white lines to overtake as long as it's safe (caveat, caveat, yada yada).

kelsen

gtvlusso wrote:

And he is the exact reason that there are drivers out there, as in Kelsons BMW case, that don't believe that they have done anything wrong when they knock you off or cause an incident.

Hope you are okay mate - FWIW, I would let it lie.....

You could contact the instutute of driving instructors with a complaint.....I am sure there must be an association, somewhere.....

This.

Having the certificates doesn't automatically make him omnisciencent, and the scary thing is he will be passing his 'expert knowledge' onto his students.

Send a reasoned and factual email to the governing body and voice your concerns about how his behaviour might be compromising his ability to teach others.

velohutts

the obvious issue would be unnecessary use of the horn , it is for warning other road users of your presence in a dangerous situation and is not to be used to rebuke other road users.
depending on the presence there is also a s3 offence of driving without consideration for other road users.
Your positioning on the road is fine in the circ's you describe , in my opinion you apply the any person test to it being if you explained to them why you were a metre out , that you were travelling at the speed limit , it was a narrow road etc etc would a reasonable person think this was acceptable ?

Best bet send an e mail to the adi as above and cc in the instructor , best guess as well would be that would be a fail on a driving test !!

TommyEss

There's no mention of the term "taking the lane" or "primary position" in the Highway Code itself - there are sections aimed specifically at cyclists, and one aimed at drivers on "vulnerable road users" (or something similar) which talks about horses, blind and disabled, and cyclists and motorcyclists. That includes guidance on giving plenty of room whilst overtaking, not overtaking before a junction you intend to turn left at and that kind of thing.

This article proves a good discussion piece - but even the Met Police have no specific guidance on cycling, they defer to the Highway Code and TfL's Cycling Safety website.

FWIW - the guy's a dick, but I doubt an email will get anywhere - he's the type of guy that some advice, however well-intentioned, is likely only to stoke the fire and slant his view on cyclists yet further - and he will definitely pass that on to his students...

bompington

davis wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

first one (he was driving) wouldn't overtake me - despite it being an A road - I was only managing sub15 up a short hill - he stuck behind - ok fair enough - it is solid doubles in the middle ... crested and the solid doubles continue - I'm now up to around 15-16 (its not fast I know!) - but he still won't go past despite plenty of room for him to do so

Yeah, we call that "obeying the law". The instructor was in the right. However, I don't think most people mind someone crossing solid white lines to overtake as long as it's safe (caveat, caveat, yada yada).

The highway code (129) allows overtaking slow moving vehicles on double whites - but defines "slow-moving" as <10mph, surely a bit slow.

EKE_38BPM

bompington wrote:

davis wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

first one (he was driving) wouldn't overtake me - despite it being an A road - I was only managing sub15 up a short hill - he stuck behind - ok fair enough - it is solid doubles in the middle ... crested and the solid doubles continue - I'm now up to around 15-16 (its not fast I know!) - but he still won't go past despite plenty of room for him to do so

Yeah, we call that "obeying the law". The instructor was in the right. However, I don't think most people mind someone crossing solid white lines to overtake as long as it's safe (caveat, caveat, yada yada).

The highway code (129) allows overtaking slow moving vehicles on double whites - but defines "slow-moving" as <10mph, surely a bit slow.

Approaching the crest of a hill implies that visibility of the road ahead could be impaired and if you can't see what may be coming, you shouldn't overtake, so the instructor was right.
Once the hill was crested Slowbike was going at over 10mph so the instructor shouldn't overtake if they couldn't do it safely without going over the double white lines, so again, the instructor was right.

Kieran_Burns

You should refer to Rule 163 of the Highway Code is the main one here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_070314

In fact that whole page as relevant to what happened.

You should also refer to Rules 211-213

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069858

Hope this helps

davis

bompington wrote:

davis wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

first one (he was driving) wouldn't overtake me - despite it being an A road - I was only managing sub15 up a short hill - he stuck behind - ok fair enough - it is solid doubles in the middle ... crested and the solid doubles continue - I'm now up to around 15-16 (its not fast I know!) - but he still won't go past despite plenty of room for him to do so

Yeah, we call that "obeying the law". The instructor was in the right. However, I don't think most people mind someone crossing solid white lines to overtake as long as it's safe (caveat, caveat, yada yada).

The highway code (129) allows overtaking slow moving vehicles on double whites - but defines "slow-moving" as <10mph, surely a bit slow.

Yep, I knew that (well, I thought the speed was actually 12.5mph for some bizarre reason) but I knew that Slowbike was definitely above it, so the instructor was still in the right. Bit pious, possibly, but correct.

jejv

126
Stopping Distances

Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. You should

* leave enough space between you and the vehicle in front so that you can pull up safely if it suddenly slows down or stops. The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance (see Typical Stopping Distances PDF below)

?

But the Highway code is a somewhat politicised document - it's not an objectively derived list of Safe Operating Procedures.

CiB

velohutts wrote:

the obvious issue would be unnecessary use of the horn

Disagree. The obvious issue is that he could not and would not accept that cyclists don't have to ride buried in the gutter, despite being told otherwise. What's he teaching his students? There's a bike look. Squeeze past him - he should be in the gutter anyway so you're ok. And so begats another generation of drivers who know because they were taught it by their driving instructor that that's the case.

I've known two people become driving instructors. Both were reasonably bright people but both were not what I'd consider anything like top notch drivers with skills that were of a level that they should be passing them onto new drivers. One of them pulled out of a car park from where we worked and went the wrong way up the dual c/way. We'd worked there long enough. That in itself doesn't disqualify anyone from becoming an instructor but it was typical of her lax attitude to driving. The other guy just saw it as a chance to earn a bit more than he was earning in his current job. No great shakes as a driver and certainly in my conversations with him he didn't seem to have any appreciation of cyclists and cyclists vulnerability. Not an exhaustive survey by any means, but it indicates that people who become driving instructors aren't guaranteed to be good drivers themselves.

bompington

davis wrote:

Bit pious, possibly, but correct.

I expect you're right there - I'm sure we've all felt that peculiar and annoying pressure when you've got someone behind you who could overtake but won't, never mind the frustration of drivers behind - but in the end, although I'll bet the instructor could easily and safely have overtaken, he wasn't doing anything wrong

Norky

He's a driving instructor, he's in a position of trust, and he's passing on to his pupils his rather twisted view of how road users that happen to be on a bicycle should behave. He's also allowing himself to become angry when you're trying to engage him in civilised, measured discussion. That's an irresponsible driving instructor. Please do everything you can to engage him, and make him aware of his error, and make his employers or the agency which gives him license to ply his trade aware of it.

I recommend a copy of 'Roadcraft the Police Driver's Handbook' http://www.amazon.co.uk/Roadcraft-The-Police-Drivers-Handbook/dp/0113408587
The first 20 pages are all about attitude. Particularly salient is this from page 5:

Attitudes to other road users
Good driving depends on constructive attitudes and consideration for other road users. There is already a great deal of potential conflict on the roads without adding to it by selfish and aggressive behaviour. Such behaviour increases the stress levels of other drivers and increases the risks of accidents. Many drivers become unneccessarily angry when other road users interrupt their progress.

Not that that you were interrupting his progress, as you've already pointed out.

This quote from an old Department for Transport (It's DfT now, not DoT or MoT ) consultation is also vaguely relevant (granted it's more about cycle paths/lanes and that wasn't an issue in your case):

Ride at a sensible speed for the situation and ensure you can stop in time. As a general rule, if you want to cycle quickly, say in excess of 18 mph/30 kph, then you should be riding on the road.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2004/ltnwc/annexdcodeofconductnoticefor1688
I.e. the DfT tells us that proper place for bicycles being ridden at reasonable speed is on the road.

Rules 212 and 213 of the Highway Code might be worth mentioning:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069858
and point out that the Highway Code describes cyclists as "vulnerable road users"... "requiring extra care"
Also, rule: 147

Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care (see Rule 204). You should try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey

Not, again, that you were behaving in anyway badly, but he thought you were and he became agitated.

I'm not sure there is a maximum distance from the kerb advised (by any reputable body), as this fellow seems to think, certainly I've heard of a minimum of 0.5 m (i.e. don't ride in the gutter) or even 1m, but of course moving further out based on hazards and conditions, i.e. "claiming your space" is sensible.

from http://www.access-legal.co.uk/free-lega ... z25gTpuwRD

Taking the lane
Cyclists are entitled to as much of the road as they need to cycle safely. If the road is obstructed by vehicles, construction, parked cars, or is particularly narrow, it's legal to take up the whole lane. As motorists you have a responsibility to share the road, and drivers must allow enough room for cyclists to manoeuvre safely on the road.

and from http://www.access-legal.co.uk/free-legal-guides/pdf/100524_mot_Cycling_guide.pdf :

Position in road
Consider riding further out from the kerb than your instinct tells you. You’ll be more visible and easier to avoid. In urban settings it is recommended to ride at least a full door’s width space between you and parked cars. This will avoid doors being opened out into you path and the need for evasive action, which may lead to another danger.
If you have no option but to travel on a narrow one way street where it is too narrow for a vehicle to pass you safely, consider if it’s safer to ride in the middle of the road.

I sincerely hope that a driving instructor has at least heard of the Institue of Advanced Motorists:
http://www.iam.org.uk/news/latest-news/452-cyclists-claim-your-lane-says-iam

The IAM (Institute of Advanced Motorists) has urged cyclists to make themselves seen and to claim their lane...

There's also 'The Official DSA Guide to Driving: the essential skills' http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Official-DSA-Guide-Driving/dp/0115528172 which might contain something useful - the excerpts on Amazon says

Be tolerant: remember that everyone is entitled to use the road

rick_chasey

I doubt he'd give a f*ck even if you did send him all that.

Norky

Redundant message removed

slowbike

davis wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

first one (he was driving) wouldn't overtake me - despite it being an A road - I was only managing sub15 up a short hill - he stuck behind - ok fair enough - it is solid doubles in the middle ... crested and the solid doubles continue - I'm now up to around 15-16 (its not fast I know!) - but he still won't go past despite plenty of room for him to do so

Yeah, we call that "obeying the law". The instructor was in the right. However, I don't think most people mind someone crossing solid white lines to overtake as long as it's safe (caveat, caveat, yada yada).

yer - there's obeying the law and being a tit ... I'm quite happy for him to have hung back whilst he couldn't see to pass - but once he could see far enough to overtake a slow road user it would've been sensible to do so - especially as I was tucked over to the left ..

129

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

daviesee

Slowbike wrote:

129

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

I think this is the root cause of most cyclist's problems.
Other road users simply do not expect us to be doing more than 10mph.
The fact that we do confuses/baffles/annoys them and generally leads them to make incorrect judgements.

slowbike

bompington wrote:

davis wrote:

Bit pious, possibly, but correct.

I expect you're right there - I'm sure we've all felt that peculiar and annoying pressure when you've got someone behind you who could overtake but won't, never mind the frustration of drivers behind - but in the end, although I'll bet the instructor could easily and safely have overtaken, he wasn't doing anything wrong

you're right - the instructor was technically correct - unfortunately what he was actually achieving was more irritation for the drivers stuck behind him - now moaning about a cyclist as well as the slow driving instructor ... which is a bit annoying as I do my best to allow vehicles to pass me quickly and efficiently ...

slowbike

daviesee wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

129

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

I think this is the root cause of most cyclist's problems.
Other road users simply do not expect us to be doing more than 10mph.
The fact that we do confuses/baffles/annoys them and generally leads them to make incorrect judgements.

Certainly explains the left hooks or being pulled out on ... or what I've suffered two days in a row ... vehicles overtaking me then having to slow for the corner - causing me to have to brake too ...

DrLex

daviesee wrote:

[...]
I think this is the root cause of most cyclist's problems.
Other road users simply do not expect us to be doing more than 10mph.
The fact that we do confuses/baffles/annoys them and generally leads them to make incorrect judgements.

Indeed- I'm grateful that the driver yesterday, having failed to estimate my speed correctly, drove on the oncoming carriageway around me and the traffic island, rather than collide with either/both. Still warranted the wrist-shake of opprobrium.

Htron

I need to stop reading these threads. They make me angry by-proxy!